Transitioning to an MSL Role: How Transferable Experience Can Help with Dr. Pamela Wiltfang

Hello, and welcome to another office hours. Today, we have Dr. Pamela Wilfang with us. And so we're just gonna dive right in. A little bit of housekeeping, actually, before we dive in immediately, is, if you have any questions as we're talking, if anything comes up that you're like, oh my gosh, I would love to ask this, do not hesitate to put it in the chat. We have a few questions kind of primed and ready to go on our side, so we're gonna go through a few of those.

But we'll be looking for questions in the chat for the q and a portion. So, yeah, thank you so much to everyone. I see everyone trickling in already. Thank you to everyone who's who's on time and excited or as excited as we are. So we are actually going to be, you know, focusing a lot of our questions today on how, you know, we have transitioned from our roles as as, you know, conventional pharmacists into being MSLs.

And so, primarily, we'll be highlighting a lot of Pamela's journey on, you know, how she learned about the role to, you know, now being in the role full time. So any questions you have for for either of us, please do not hesitate to put them in the chat, and we will we will hop in right now. Okay. Amazing. So thank you again for for joining us today.

Can you share a little bit about how you first learned about the MSL role, and, ultimately, what inspired you to go down this path to to attain the role? Yeah. I think and first, thank you everybody for joining, and thank you to the MSL Academy for having me. And Swati, appreciate this and appreciate the invite. But, so my story, I would say, you know, I think when I was going through pharmacy school, I didn't even know what an MSL was.

They didn't really talk about it. Right? And then one of my mentors became an MSL. She was MS an MSL for over a decade, and I don't think I really even knew for sure what she did as an MSL because it you know, again, it wasn't really a thing, and I didn't really have a lot of interaction with MSLs at the time. But then, you know, I was starting to write a few fellowship letters.

A few of my students, did fellowships. We kept in touch, and they all kept mentioning, you know, hey. Like, you would really thrive in this industry, world, and you would be perfect for an MSL role. And, you know, at the time, I'm like, okay. Interesting.

I was really happy as director of clinical services and innovative practice at at NuCaron. You know, I really felt like I was making a difference for patients. And I wasn't looking to change anything. I thought I was gonna be that fifty year pharmacist at NuCare. I was going on a smooth, you know, ride, but then, you know, COVID happened.

We went through the whole, you know, crazy vaccine times, but then, you know, the business priorities kinda changed after that. My role changed a little bit as well with the business priorities. I didn't feel like I was making an impact like I was previously. So I guess I kinda felt like I was at a plateau. And, you know, I'm the type of person that really needs to feel like I'm making a difference.

I'm pushing projects forward, making an impact, and, you know, that's kinda when I started to really think about, you know, what my students had said, like, about industry. So, I really just kinda went all in. I felt like it was the right time to make a change in my career and take on a new challenge. So here we are. Amazing.

And so you mentioned a little bit about your professional background before becoming an MSL, so serving as, you know, director of clinical services and innovative practice. So could you talk a little bit more about that? And in particular, can you highlight some of the aspects of that role that you think you were able to translate into an MSL role? Yes. Definitely.

And I think I'm I'm very grateful for my past, you know, experience at Nucara's clinical director just because it allowed me to have a variety of experiences. So I think, you know, there are three things that I kinda thought were important to the MSL role that I thought I had a good grasp on after, you know, my twelve years of clinical practice. You know, one of them was, my extensive network. Second one is, you know, already having managed a territory of five states. And the third one is, you know, that relationship building and communication skills that I developed over those years.

So really kinda going through these individually, you know, having that extensive network of pharmacists, you know, in my territory already, having five states, in my role as clinical director, and then having that opportunity to still teach and mentor pharmacy students in that twelve years, you know, being part of the local, regional, national pharmacy associations and even adding later on, you know, being part of the board of physician assistants, like, all those, you know, kind of helps increase that network for me. So just randomly being part of a lot of different things, a lot of different projects, and managing that territory helped me have that have that network to kinda build on, you know, you know, as I became an MSL. And then, you know, since I was managing that territory of five states, you know, going to multiple conferences, this is where the territory comes in, territory management. That second point that I made. So really just kind of gathering insights from, you know, local providers, finding ways to collaborate with local institutions or payers, those value based, plans as clinical director that help with territory management.

And then the last one with relationship billing and communication skills, they're all kinda tied together, but really already having having to make these cold calls to providers, to payers, to patients. You know, I developed a pretty tough skin because sometimes that's tough as an MSL to start. Like, you're gonna get ignored a lot. And, really, that helped me gain that experience to access those, you know, difficult to reach medical practices and institutions. So, just having those years of experience was was helpful to me, and I think and I I'm really thankful to Nikira to giving me all those experiences and fresh projects so that I had a different experience to talk about based on the interview questions that I got.

Amazing. And so as you started down this path, you know, you're, you know, compiling your resume. You're thinking about, okay. I'm gonna start applying to jobs. So what strategies or resources helped you most, would you say, during your job search?

I would say during my job search, probably I mean, LinkedIn, obviously, was helpful because I could find the, positions there pretty easily filtering all that. I think, you know, doing the informational interviews with people on LinkedIn was helpful, but sometimes, you know, like, timing didn't work out with already having another job. Right? So, if I didn't have the time to do that, I would try to also make sure, you know, I listened to, you know, MSL Talk podcast at the time. They had a lot of resources.

So I tried to listen to at least one on the way to work and one on the way back to work because it was about, like, a twenty minute drive to work, so some of those typically worked out. But, yeah, I think just kind of hearing everyone else's experiences whether on a recorded podcast or live, I thought that was really helpful, for me, for resources. I never did any, like, mock interviews or anything with anybody, which I thought I probably needed because, you know, I'd always been on the other side of the interview, the the person that's hiring someone. But when it came to interviewing, you know, I definitely feel like I hadn't interviewed for twelve years, so just took time to practice, write it all out, do it out loud, figure out what kind of questions are they gonna ask me in these questions. So, I hear, like, background feedback.

Is this sound okay for you? Yeah. Definitely. Mhmm. Yeah.

It sounds good. And I love that you've got the informational interviews because that's something that I talk about with, you know, students or, you know, current professionals who are interested in learning more about the MSL role. And and, lastly, just understanding a little bit more of, like, the industry lingo and just understanding what the role entails because that'll be always one of the questions that you'll be asked in the interview process is, you know, what do you know about the role or, or something like that or or even, like, what's your understanding of the roles, you know, influence in medical affairs or the roles impact in industry, like those sorts of things. So to be able to actually hear that straight from the MSLs that are currently in the field is great. And and one thing that I found as I was doing inner informational interviews as well is, you know, because this is still considered kind of an unconventional role for a health care professional or, you know, someone who's in academia, there are so many people who are willing to give you, you know, fifteen, ten minutes, twenty minutes, thirty minutes to just, you know, help you understand the role because they understand that likely they didn't have that experience.

A lot of people don't have, you know, the fellowship experience. Instead, they have years of clinical practice or years in academia, and they're just trying to understand, you know, how can I reframe my experience to be a great, you know, fit for the MSL role? So to be able to have those informational interviews are just so key and important. And I I hear people talk about it, but I always urge people that, you know, you're not encroaching on anyone's space. You're not, you know, you're not, like, annoying anyone because I I hear that often.

Often. It's like, oh my gosh. I don't wanna, like, you know, reach out to someone who I have no mutual connections with. That's like, I do that all the time, and I feel like a lot of the reasons that, you know, I am where I am now, and it sounds like the same with you too, Pamela, is, like, you just had the the willingness to, like, reach out and learn from other people who are in the position that you wanna be in. Yep.

Exactly. I think if they don't wanna I mean, they won't respond if they don't wanna talk to you, so it's okay. And, again, that's and I'll be building tough skin for when you're actually in MSL. So Well and that's the thing is, like, if people don't respond, I never take that personally because, likely, it's just because they're very busy. I mean, they're in MSL, so they're balancing all these different responsibilities and initiatives and everything and working cross functionally.

And so they don't they might not have time. So just because they're not responding doesn't mean they, you know, are offended or they don't wanna respond to you. They honestly might have seen it and missed it, or maybe they don't check LinkedIn that often. So, yeah, I I always advise not to take it personally because, like, 99 times out of a hundred or a 98 or a 99 times out of 200, it's it's not personal. Okay.

Great. So we started talking a little bit about, you know, as you were preparing for the interview process and for the application, you know, entire process. So could you talk a little bit about the interview process itself? Like, okay. So you get the hiring manager interview.

What happens after that? And I I think it's important to highlight because, you know, these interviews and this process is a little bit different from perhaps some other roles that people who are listening in may have taken a part of? Yeah. So, I mean, I think it's fairly similar. I had a lot of interviews with different companies, but, typically, you know, you get that screening interview.

They're really just trying to see, you know, how do you answer the phone? How do you sound, do you sound excited, can you repeat what your job history is and be confident in that. And then, really, they're like, okay. No. This person's background looks like it checks out.

They're a great communicator. Then, typically, it would go to the hiring manager. So it would be who your boss is, typically. And they just wanna see you know, it is they say it's all about fit, but it truly is. They just wanna see if you're gonna fit in with the team, fit in with them, if it's the right leadership style for you.

Mhmm. So it's not just an interview for you, or, like, they're not just interviewing you, but you're interviewing them as well. So you can always ask your questions about culture during, you know, that process. And, typically, if they find that, okay. I think this person would fit well with our team, then they would connect you with, you know, two one to two to three MSLs on the team to make sure it really is a good fit or maybe to give you an opportunity to ask the MSLs about, you know, the the hiring manager to make sure, again, that it's a good fit for everybody.

Right? And, then moving forward, you you know, the next step is typically a panel presentation. So presenting on something that you know, a topic that they pick or a topic that you pick. And I think sometimes this is, you know, some good I get good questions on this where, do I pick a do I pick the actual drug? And, like, if you do pick the actual drug that you're gonna cover, make sure you know it in and out.

Obviously, you wanna be confident cause they're gonna be the experts on that, so they're gonna ask you the hardest questions. Other thing you know, if I'd say, like, sometimes I typically picked a presentation that was, like, adjacent, you know, to the topic, because, again, this whole, you know, the the whole industry was very different than what I was used to in clinical practice. So, you know, even though I went through a lot of interviews, interviewing people, this was completely different, and you have to handle the interviews a little bit different as well. But then the panel presentation, I think, where most people, where we see most people, I guess, not really make a mistake, but, again, you kind of have to be balanced. Like, if you're a pharmacist, right, you're used to giving clinical recommendations.

So, they might trick you into seeing if you would give a recommendation, but, really, what you have to say is, you know, here's the data that might support clinical decisions that you might make. What do you think? Do you think this is enough data for to help you make that decision? What additional data would you need to make that decision? But you're no longer that you know, you're not making clinical decisions anymore.

You just have to be scientific, you know, databased, and, really just, yeah, not not giving your own opinion on anything. So I think that was the most difficult part for me, and then that's where we see some of the pharmacists sometimes struggle during the panel interview process. I would also add, you know, knowing your audience is so important for the scientific presentation. I have listened to quite a few scientific presentations where you can tell the health care provider. So oftentimes, you know, the pharmacist who's interviewing, you know, they're going through the the scientific presentation, but they're so used to speaking to patients, that the that the conversation or the way that the information is conveyed actually doesn't quite fit, the way that, an MSL presentation should sound, given that, you know, those are oftentimes given to health care providers rather than patients.

So that's also something to to keep in mind. Another tip with scientific presentations is, you know, one of the things I I always advise on is, like, think of the top, like, 10 questions that you think that they'll ask you. One way you can do that as a unit, you can practice your scientific presentation with someone who may also be a pharmacist or may be another health care provider or a PhD, but are maybe not super familiar with that particular therapeutic area or that particular drug or disease state. And then you can actually see, you know, what sorts of questions they might have. And then the the super tip is not only to prep for those, you know, 10 questions, but also maybe even having a slide or a few slides that pertain to some of the questions that you may not end up presenting, but you just have in your back pocket because you can always just flip to them, if a question is asked, just to to have and it makes you look really prepared and, like, ready to go.

Like, you're already anticipating what sorts of questions or inquiries that people are going to have so that you already, you know, have them. Not only not only do you have the answer, but you have the answer in, like, a slide form. Yep. Exactly. Great tip.

You can also if you're not sure what questions they might ask, which I think, you know, it it's tough to like, really, they're they're gonna ask you, you know, why do you wanna be an MSL, or what pushback do you think you would get on this topic from providers, and how would you handle that? But I'll just push that AI is your friend. I actually use AI a lot as an MSL. So you can just plug a few prompts, be really specific, practice with AI to see what kind of things it pulls up for you. Like, what kind of questions would I get on this journal article, or what kind of pushback do you think I would get on this article from providers?

So others are probably using AI. So if you're not, then you might be at a disadvantage. Yeah. And I mean and and what are the the experts saying is, like, AI is not going to replace you. It's gonna be people who are using AI who are going to replace you.

Right? Okay. Amazing. So, moving on to the next question. So many aspiring MSL struggle with, you know, feeling like they don't have industry experience or they don't have MSL experience, and they look at the job postings and they're like, oh my gosh.

It says suggested, you know, one to two or one to five years or something. So how can they overcome this barrier, and how can candidates position themselves as, you know, being the best fit? It really it's it's all about timing. I would say that's probably the biggest thing, timing. Right?

So when are you applying? Who are you applying with? Like, who is on the team already? Who is the manager? What are they looking for?

So, you know, going back to my previous industry roles, you know, I did ask my managers, you know, why they selected me? Why was I so special? You know? Not that I was special, but I was just curious. Right?

Because I I made it through. I broke through. So, you know, one of them told me they hired me for, you know, my payer and PBM experience because there was no one else on the team that had that background. And I wasn't necessarily in managed care, but I was able to really, like, sell that experience that I had with Walmart while I was at Nucara because I thought that that would be a valuable, unique experience to share. And then, you know, another person told me that, you know, their team was focused on hiring a team of, like, strong communicators, strong relationship builders, didn't really care a lot about experience.

They want some wanted some, you know, experienced MSLs. They were willing to take some new MSLs, but really wanted those, you know, strong communicators since that is a big foundation of a great MSL. But, you know, when I look at myself also just you know, if you do get to the interview, you wanna think about, okay, what other barriers do I see? Obviously, no experience. But then those transferable skills I talked about.

Right? My network, the territory management that I had. Like, I was already used to traveling and knew what that was like, with the family. Right? And then, you know, my communication relationship building skills, those are the three important things that I found that I could sell myself with, you know, in those interviews.

You know? And then on top of that, you know, I was, again, really thankful to have all the different pharmacy experiences in specialty compounding, you know, long term care, veterinary. So I had a lot of experiences to pull from based on the specific roles and questions that I had. But, again, I think in the interviews, I was a little nervous as soon as I mentioned, you know, I'm a mom of three kids under, you know, eight at the time, you know, really trying to to say, like, you know, I already have experience traveling. I know I I already go to conferences.

I already juggle, you know, travel along with workload, along with family, and, you know, stressing that I know how to prioritize the right tasks and, you know, avoiding that burnout too. But, again, just like looking at yeah. It's just the no experience thing. What are the some of the other things that they might pull out that they think are negative and always just having some sort of answer for it? You don't have to bring it out right away.

But, thinking about some other things, you know, might be helpful as well. Definitely. And, actually, I I said we would leave all the questions to the end, but we actually have a great question in the chat that pertains to what we're talking about. So, they asked, you know, how do you express your experience beyond what's in your resume before you're given an interview? You know, sometimes resumes don't show the extent of your experience properly.

How would you answer that? Yeah. For that, I would say, you know, you wanna make sure you put that experience in there. So, I mean, again, if you wanna reach out individually and let me know what that specific, you know, experience is that you wanna portray, we can kinda work on that specifically. But, again, like, my advice is just making sure, like, all your, like, you know, project management, and then you can list all the projects in there.

If you feel like it's important, just make sure it's a a concise bullet. You can use multiple bullets if you did multiple things during a specific project. So, yeah, I would say make sure it's in there. Like and and I feel like, you know, the length thing people talk about, oh, it has to be one or two pages, but I do think that a lot of people have debunked that now where, like, when I was applying my CV, honestly okay. This is crazy.

But my CV started out at, like, 19 pages, and then I I had to cut it down. Right? I could only cut it down to six pages because I feel like that was all the experience that was relevant to industry. So just make sure that the information is relevant that's in there. You don't need to include things from, like, undergrad or anything like that.

Even if it if you're further on into practice, it's probably not important to include anything that's from, like, college Mhmm. Either. You know? So that kinda saves some space if you're wanting to figure out what to prioritize as well. But I do have a CV, like, checklist that, you know, I've, like, created from different recruiters and kind of combine my own.

If you want, you know, you can always reach out for them to each checklist to make sure you have the important things in there. Amazing. Yeah. And the other thing I would add is, like, for every single bullet, there should be some sort of, like, action item or some sort of, like, deliverable or some sort of, like, outcome associated with it. It shouldn't just be like, oh, I partnered with you know, like or I I worked cross functionally across departments.

It's like, that's cool, but, like, what was the outcome of that? Like, did you drive engagement? Did you, you know, increase, you know, patient outcomes? Like like, what sort of thing and it the more you can quantify that outcome, the better. So if you have the numbers to back up, like, this was the, you know, improvement in blah blah blah or something.

I'm not giving a very concrete example, but I but I I've been, like, articulating, you know, like, what the intention is here. So it's like, the more detailed you can well, rather, maybe not more detailed, but, like, the most more specific you can be and the more quantitative you can be with the particular outcome, the better. Because, you know, like, the real estate of the space on the page is, you know, super important. So every single word, every single thing you're putting on there, as Pamela said, needs to be pertinent to the rule. And so if you feel like the resume, or CV needs to be longer, that's totally fine.

But also understand that the hiring managers or the, you know, HR, they're not, gonna look at every single word. So there has to be, like if they are gonna glance at something, make sure whatever they're glancing at for, you know, like, on the first few pages is something that's going to help them get excited to continue to look at the rest of what is there. Yeah. Alright. Wonderful.

So, we do have some other questions in the chat that I actually think, are pertain to what we're talking about. So I'm I'm actually gonna dive into the chat again. So, so we have, a few questions here. So the first one is, what are some of the most common mistakes aspiring MSLs make when applying or interviewing? We we hit on some tips that kind of, you know, talk about some of the mistakes, but we can be a little more explicit.

So, Pamela, why don't you start, and then I can I can hop in if I wanna add anything? Sure. So most common mistakes. So when applying or interviewing, again, it's hard to know because, like, now I mean, it's hard to know what you need to do. And I I did so much research.

I listened to a lot of podcasts. But, again, like, making sure you have the right information in there, like, using the recruiters' checklists, right, that they have. Again, willing to send my checklist to make sure you have the right information. I think some people do don't do, like, you know, making sure your email is, like, a professional email. Right?

There there's been a recent one that we got that where it was, like, just not professional. I think just, like, first name, last name at Gmail or something is perfect if it's available, if it's possible. Other things, I think people are way too long winded. And, honestly, I'm really bad at this too, so I'm trying to be very concise in my answers here today even, as well. So just trying to be as fit, as, concise, clear, specific as possible.

Right? Outcomes oriented. Not what you like, you can list the things that you did, but okay. You know, I worked on this, you know, Walmart Walmart value based program that saved the company, you know, over $2,000,000 you know, something very big, specific that is impactful. Right?

So I think those are the a couple of the things. I think there are there may be wrong answers to why you wanna be an MSL. I think it's something maybe, so I think you can, kinda go over that too. But, you know, I think you wanna be honest, but, also, sometimes people don't bring the outcome back to the patient. So, again, we're all health care providers.

We're all in this for the patient. Right? So make sure that your answers always bring, that importance back to the patient and and or making sure you include some of the mission, vision, values, and some of your answers, and, that can be pretty impressive as well. So that's all I'll say. Yeah.

Because it shows that you actually did the research on the company, and you're actually bringing back your answer to the mission, vision, values of that company. And those are super easily accessible on the website, so you don't need to go, like, sifting and searching for you can find that in a very quick, very quick e a very quick landing page, very quick Google search. Okay. So I would definitely echo that. The other thing I would say is about the question about why you wanna be an MSL, please do not say work life balance because I feel like that is like everyone and their mother, father, sister, and brother wants work life balance.

So, like, to say that that's the reason you're going after a specific role is not going to resonate because it's not for I mean, it's not anything that we haven't heard before. But at the end of the day, like, there's so many other jobs where you can get work life balance. I mean, you can be an ER doctor and do shift work and be gone for eight hours and have the other, you know, sixteen of the day, and then you get your work life balance. Right? So there are so many different sorts of jobs that can give you work life balance.

So don't say that. And then the other thing is the one thing that I really love and always stands out, whether I'm recruiting for an internship, for an MSL role, like, you name it, man, if you send a follow-up email, I will remember you because so few people send follow-up emails. They can be as simple as thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for, you know, hopping on a call. And then they insert maybe one sentence about something specific we talked about or something specific that was brought up on the interview, and then, you know, they look forward to hearing about next steps.

Like, it could be three sentences. But just the fact that someone has taken the time, effort, and energy to write a thank you email, like, I can say, like, some of the people who have stood out to me and who have ended up landing roles as, you know, when I've been a hiring manager have been those people because they get that extra, you know, sticker or that extra, you know, one differentiating point when we're deciding between two candidates who are both awesome. Sometimes that is one of the the tipping factors. So, I would consider that, and that's an element of professionalism. Because if you think about when you become an MSL, a lot of what you're doing is interacting with people externally and creating relationships.

And so you being able to send those follow ups is really going to to demonstrate that not only am I going to be an effective communicator, I'm also going to be great at cultivating these relationships. So that's what I would have. So there's that question that says, what makes you stand out during eight rotations? I think APPE rotation. So I think, you know, as a preceptor, I was surprised at how little thank yous I got as a preceptor.

And just don't forget. Right? Same thing for the informational interviews. Like, people are are using their time to help you at no cost. Right?

I mean, you have to pay for school, but the preceptors are not getting that. So just make sure you send thank yous to those that you know, on rotations and those that are, helping with informational interviews as well. Because you never know when you're gonna run into them again. And even if they're in MSL now, they might be, you know, a field director later. And, you know, I can always go back to my LinkedIn messages and see how that communication looked between that person if you are looking for a job in the future.

So, again, everybody says it, but it is a small world, so those thank yous do mean a lot. Definitely. And then I'm going to actually hit on. We're getting some really amazing questions in the chat, so I wanna, answer a few other ones. So, someone was asking, can you share the names of podcasts you were listening to that you mentioned or any other resources that you can benefit from?

So there is MSL talk, so that's the one that that Pamela was referring to. But, actually, the MSL Academy just launched one as well because that is, you know, something that we saw as, like, there's only one podcast out there with people talking about this stuff. So there is so much more opportunity to share other people's stories and other people's journeys and and other things that even current MSLs can benefit from, as well as aspiring MSLs. So I would say those. And, I mean, those are definitely the the main podcast I would refer to.

The MSL Academy is really excited about building out, you know, like, our blog. We have tons of really great information that's just free that you can just go to the MSL Academy and look at the blog, like, things from, you know, tips on interview and aspiring MSL stuff all the way to, you know, how to manage your KOL list as a current MSL. So, those would be some resources I would recommend. Do you have any other additional ones, Pamela? Yeah.

I guess as you're interviewing too, what I did was listen to podcasts on the therapeutic area or the drugs or whatever is related to what you're presenting because I think that's the way that I learned the best also. And if you hear people talk about it and if you hear different people talk about it, then you might actually figure out, this might be a good way to answer a question if I get it. So I would always listen to podcasts, on the topic area as well. So the I mean, not a specific podcast, but just search for it. Right?

And and you might learn something based on the drug. It'll be like, hey. Or there might be a journal club on your journal too that you present, so that could be helpful also. Oh, I would also add, you know, you actually, helped me remember some other resources. So if you're interested, there are things like, to keep, like, up to date on the news and what is going on.

On. So when I was doing interviews, it's it's been a minute, but when I was doing interviews, more like, the most recently, I was looking at, like, Fierce Pharma, Fierce Biotech, and I was looking at other, like, news sites like that. I actually did get them the newsletters to my email. So as far as I know that they're still free. But what I would do, like, before interviewing at, you know, insert company here, I would just goo I would just, like, search on Fierce Pharma, Fierce Biotech, any of those, like, newsletters, and just see, like, are is there any, like, interesting news?

Because then that becomes a really cool question that you can ask at the end of, like, a hiring manager interview of, like, oh, I just saw this news that came out. Like, you know, how is that impacting your medical affairs team? Like, something like that. Or, like, when I was interviewing, there was, like, an imminent m and a that came out, and so I was like, Celgene, like, how's that going for you? Because they they had just gotten acquired.

So, like, sometimes there is, like, big news that pops up when you're interviewing, and so you're able to, you know, have that discussion. It also shows that you're able to stay on top of what's going on in the field, which is, again, another super pertinent skill to being an MSL. Okay. Great. Okay.

So we have, some other other great questions in here. So the next one, I wanted to ask is, you know, what would you recommend for someone looking for an entry level MSL role? Actually, maybe I should wind it back and actually read the whole question because I was trying to paraphrase, and I got confused. So someone asked, I'm actually looking for an MSL role. So she has, a firm d background.

A lot of roles include a requirement of three to five years as an MSL. Would you recommend looking for an entry level MSL or try to outweigh the requirement of MSL experience with previous clinical experience? It was an awesome question. Do you wanna start and then I can Yeah. I think it it's tough.

Right? So you have to be realistic about your competition. Right? So it doesn't really matter what the role says. So, again, it's all about timing, but who are you competing with?

Typically, there's hundreds of applications in for each MSL role. Right? So even if it says entry level role, in my opinion, an MSL role is not an entry level role. You have to have some sort of transferable experience to get that role competitive because, you know, again, there are likely others with experience, maybe in that therapeutic area, you know, in that territory that you're applying with. So, you know, what experience do you have that makes you stand out?

You know, it's definitely hard when, like, the new grads come too because, you know, the chances of landing an MSL role right out of school is is pretty low. I've never seen it happen. I've seen a lot of my students get some of, like, commercial roles, right out of school. No MSLs yet, right out of school. I'm not saying it's impossible, but, again, just be realistic about who else is applying, who are you're competing with.

You know? Again, it's gonna be narrowed down by AI systems. So, again, it's gonna match your resume and your CV to the job description. What does that percentage match? Right?

It there's other referrals that come in. Right? So referrals of people that know people that wanna get in the industry, and then you you might also be competing with internal candidates as well. So it's tough. I'm not trying to discourage anybody, but, you know, it can happen if you have the right timing, the right company.

Because sometimes, you know, some people can't pay enough to get the you know, to get an MSL with experience that they want. So sometimes, you know, those lower paying roles might be a good way to get in, too. Or if you're not trying to ask for too much money, that might be a little bit more competitive. Because usually, like, you know, as you get through the MSL, people start to get bumps, and then they you typically have to mat they have to match that to be able to move. So those are your opportunities to kinda get in, as well when maybe it's a biotech that might not have, you know, the money to compete.

So Yeah. So my hot take on this is that, you know, even if you have three, five, ten, twenty years of clinical experience, it's just simply not the same as being an MSL in industry. So I would say if it's your first role that you're applying to as an MSL role outside of, you know, anything industry related, so let's say in this context, you know, you have three to five years of clinical experience, You're going for your first MSL role. I would not suggest going for, like, a senior MSL role or something like that where they have a requirement of three to five years, because I just think you're going to be outweighed by your competition who have MSL experience. But that being said, if it says, you know, one to three years suggested or one to three years required, I mean, that's when like, if you're looking at the smaller ranges, or, like, the lower ranges rather, not smaller, but lower ranges, that's where I see aspiring MSLs who don't have industry experience, who are able to break in because they are looking for, yes, people who might have some experience, but not three to five years.

Maybe the one to three years is very where you can break in and really highlight your transferable skills. That's a question you could ask in your informational interviews. Like, some companies so you'll have to feel a lot of that. Some companies, don't hire people without experience. Some companies are more willing to hire people without experience.

So I'm not gonna call anything out on this podcast, but, but, yeah, that that's a good question to ask, when you have your informational interviews. Absolutely. Oh, a question a follow-up about AI. So someone was asking, you know, what AI tools or LLMs would you recommend getting used to using as an MSL? So they're saying, you know, ChatGPT is there, but there's also ones for clinical studies like NotebookLM, SySpace.

I'm wondering, Pamela, if you use any particular ones. So ChatGPT, honestly, is what I use, and there's different versions if you have access to it. I think, you know, like, the o one version is actually a little bit more specific if you can if you can use that version, because it has so many, like, versions now. I think it just gives more detailed answers and, you know, again, with more experience, you'll get used to asking the correct questions. Like, the more specific you are, the better answer you're gonna get.

Someone actually told me I've never tried it, but my friend uses this one that's called Gemini something. Mhmm. So that's something that you can look into. So try some different ones. I know, like, some of them cost money, but now and once you get in the industry, they probably will have a platform for you.

But, you know, I think you could have a couple because then you can get, like, your three to 10 free ones from each one if you're if you're asking a lot of questions. Right? So Definitely. Yeah. I mean, a lot of, pharma companies now are actually trying to, like, create their own internally and, like, train their own, based off, like, you know, medical affairs teams or, like, MI team or, like, medical information teams and stuff.

So, I would just start with ChatChiBT for now. I and that's the one I primarily use, as well. Okay. So we have some other really great questions coming through. So I'm gonna I'm gonna pause the the other ones that that Pamela that you and I were talking about before this, and we're gonna just go straight to these.

These are great. So, someone is asking to their pharmacist. They have, you know, experience in retail, outpatient, long term care. And, you know, they're finding difficulty getting past, you know, that initial, like, AI system that just screens the the resumes and everything, and they feel like they're being ghosted. So do we have any suggestions about maximizing the chances of passing through?

So I can start super briefly, and then I can hand it off to you. So the one thing I will say is, like, I mean, they're trained on the job description itself. So I would say every time you're sending out your resume and cover letter for a role, ensure that you are actually taking out key phrases or words directly from the job description because that is what is the algorithm is trained on. And so if you have, like, your normal resume that you're sending off to every single role, it may or may not actually hit for all the roles because every single resume and the each algorithm is specifically looking at that job description. And so one thing to keep in mind so, like, some companies, like, if you've heard the the acronym KOL, so that's a key opinion leader.

Some companies call that a TOL, like a thought leader or a thought what is it? Like, a thought opinion leader or something. Some call them, like, SMEs or subject matter experts. Right? But it's all the same thing.

Literally, it's just each company wants to be special and call it something different. So you have to adjust your resume every time to actually fit what that particular job description is looking for. So that would be the first thing, and that could be one of the reasons why, you know, you're not getting past that the algorithm system or the AI system is because you're not tailoring your resume to every single job description. Anything else, Pamela? Yeah.

I would say with that too again, like, keep in mind your competition. It may or may not mean that your CV is getting screened, but, you know, if they have a really great internal candidate, they might not even review some of the other ones. That's that's the unfortunate thing with the competition. Right? Or if they have people that already have that experience, then, you know, that's where that AI system might kick you out.

Because, you know, if there's if there's 300 applications and, like, they take the top five, like, you know, sometimes that's that's tough and you might not be seen because, honestly, I think most people don't wanna do that many screening interviews. Right? Our you know, like, what I've seen is probably maybe, like, sometimes even two or three screening interviews if they feel like they really like a candidate. So it it's just really tough. So, again, if you're not getting interviews, you might need to change something, right, or add an experience or something, or maybe sell it correctly like like what Swati was saying.

Do you have specific outcomes associated with that retail experience? Like, do you pull out the payer experience from retail? Do you pull out, like, how much money you're saving or how many Beers List medications you've DC'd from long term care patients? Right? How many MTMs you've done or how much money you you've brought in for the company with MTMs, like, specific outcomes with that CV.

So trying something we can talk, specifically about that too. But, yeah, maybe trying to add more specifics or adding things from that job description, like Swati was saying. Definitely. And another thing with, you know, the tailoring of your resume and adding more specificity is, like, if you're applying to different therapeutic areas, like, for different resumes, I think you should be highlighting, especially if you're coming from retail or outpatient or long term care, you see so many therapeutic areas. So there are so many potential opportunities to put specific highlights of, like, if you're applying to, like, a endocrinology diabetes specific position, let's say, like, type two diabetes position, there should be some bullets in there that specifically speak to some sort of experience that you can pull from any of these, you know, retail, outpatient, LTC, experiences that specifically speak to what sort of impact you are able to make in diabetes.

Because you might be competing with someone else or other people who are applying that are literally they have done a two year, you know, residency in diabetes. And so and they work in, you know, ambulatory care, and they literally see diabetes all day every day. So how can you frame your experience to be a great fit? Because not only in long term care do you see diabetes, you can talk about all those other outcomes that Pamela mentioned. So you become super multifaceted, and you're not just the diabetes specific, you know, specialist.

You do all these other things, which makes you an even better applicant. So it's thinking about how to be specific with the job description, but also highlighting the other things that you've done that make you a very unique candidate versus other people. Cool. Okay. So I think that's great.

The next question that we have here is, could you describe the core competencies and or day to day responsibilities expected of an MSL, particularly in, you know, a certain therapeutic area? So, Pamela, I'll let you start with that. Sure. So I think core competencies, you know, you really have to and I think that this will relate back to the question on how can you stand out doing, like, during APPEs as well. So, like, getting really comfortable with doing journal clubs and knowing how to pull out the data, not just reading the abstracts.

Like, the discussion is probably the most important part of the the article, but, really, not just knowing how to do the journal club, but, like, where is this specific article that just came out going to be helpful for me? Like, is there a specific scenario or a specific question that a doctor is gonna ask me where I I can use this article. Right? It's not just retaining information, but applying it. Same thing through pharmacy school, through any school.

Right? How do you apply the information that you're taking in? And then, you know, day to day responsibilities, it it really is, I think, the I saw another question maybe in this that this could relate to is the territory management is really difficult for new MSLs. Because if if you haven't managed a territory before or if you can get some experience doing this, I think this is this would be my biggest worry, as, like, a field director. Right?

And I can see why because it I can see why because, you know, if you have five states so I have five states. I previously had eight states. How are you gonna manage that territory effectively? Do you know all the institutions in that all the important, you know, academic institutions in that territory? Do you know all the important community institutions in that territory?

Do you know the all the specific community practices in that territory where you would be able to so it would be impressive if you already knew, like, how you're gonna plan that territory, if you knew people in those institutions, even if they're not in the therapeutic area. Right? So my network is basically comprised of pharmacists. Right? So if I know any pharmacist in Mayo, which is a very difficult system to access.

Right? Like, they can figure out like, even if it's eight degrees of connection, I know someone there that can help me to get access. So that's probably one of the hardest things too. Like, if you don't already have the connections or if you don't already have access, that's where the other MSLs with experience are gonna be like, the network is big because, like, it's hard to get access if you don't it. It's very difficult.

So I think if someone has an extensive network, I think that was helpful for me to break into industry because I I had that network of being part of these pharmacy organizations, and teaching the last, you know, like, five years of students that became pharmacists and stayed in the Midwest. Right? And, so, yeah, I think I don't know if I strayed away from the question, but, you know, day to day responsibilities. I think the one thing that people really the one thing that people hate is documentation, but that's the one thing I love. So I think I'm really good at that piece of it.

But documenting who you see is a big part, and it's I think people would say that's the not so fun part of being an MSL. So using two to three days to travel and then other days admin or using I use my evenings to document, when I'm traveling in the hotel so I can save that time, you know, in case there's other admin things going on. So I can save that time and be present with my family when I'm not traveling. Absolutely. So we actually have two questions that I'm going to fuse into one because they're more or less asking the same thing.

And so both of these people are coming from, you know, academia. And so they're both pretty much wondering, you know, like, how do I how do they get into, you know, an entry level or, you know, their first MSL role? And are there any other roles that, you know, we would suggest that they look at, and then maybe they can transition from that role to an MSL role? I would suggest things like looking into, like, a medical communication specialist or a medical information specialist, like, something else that's still within the realm of medical affairs. But and and I do see this often of, like, people who start off in kind of of in house medical affairs and, you know, medical communications is kind of creating some of the materials that the medical, you know, field team, like the MSLs, will go off and use and, you know, present the decks at a conference or at, you know, a hospital system or a private practice sort of a thing.

So, you know, to be able to get that in house experience and create and build your network in medical affairs in general, go to the conferences, all of those great things, that can be an amazing stepping stone. And oftentimes, there's a lot less competition for those sort of in house roles that are considered a bit more entry level versus an MSL role where wherein, you know, once you get that experience in house, to be able to bring that and translate that to an MSL role is an awesome way to get your foot in the door. Anything else you wanna add to that, Pamela? Yeah. I would just say sometimes our roles like, our roles are called scientific communications.

So I think learning the term like, everybody calls things differently. Like, Pfizer's, I think, MSLs are field directors or something. So just as you do your informational interviews, maybe try to make sure you know what those med info scientific communications rules are called at that company because then you just have a wider base. Like, it might you might be able to search for something that others might not know, You know, if you're more educated on some of those that terminology, and you might be able to you know, just less competition and some of those that have the different names. Right?

Definitely. So the next question we have, is about the difference between what's a sales like, a sales rep versus a medical science liaison. Like, what's the difference? And, you know, could an MSL role like, we were talking about the stepping stone. Could medical sales or pharmaceutical sales rep be another stepping stone opportunity?

So I'll I'll let you start with that. Yeah. So I think when I started, I'm pretty sure I didn't know the difference between a sales rep and an MSL. And whenever I do my pharmacy presentations now, I always ask people if they know what an MSL is or who works with an MSL. Because, really, like, what I say is the difference is our metrics are not, like, they're not based on the number of prescriptions that are written.

So sales reps, they have to sell the product. They should be fair and balanced. Right? They should provide efficacy with safety. And but, you know, their their metrics are based on prescriptions and the number of prescriptions that are written.

And then the MSL comes in is basically, the MSL is the scientific resource for the sales reps. So the sales reps can they can talk about anything that's in the package inserts, PI. Right? So PI is package insert. It can also be principal investigator.

PI stands for a lot of fun things in industry. But, yeah, so we can talk about things on label. But then the MSL comes in, and they can talk about things off label. They can bring in additional data that the provider asks about. But our metrics are they're quality based.

Right? So we're just we're trying to gather insights from these experts to figure out, okay. Yeah. Like I said earlier, like, what do you think about this data? Does this data help you make, you know, good clinical decisions in this therapeutic area?

What additional data do you need? You know, would if we did some more you know, I guess, just kind of, like, just digging deeper is what the MSL is there for, and it's not promotional at all. So sales is promotional. MSL is not promotional. We're we have to present balanced information.

So we're just providing data, not giving recommendations to all either. So I'll stop there. I guess you can continue. Definitely. And then in in terms of the the stepping stone, it's like, it's possible people could go from the, you know, like, pharmaceutical sales role and transition into an MSL.

Like, actually, one of my colleagues who I, you know, went through the interview process for fellowships with, he, you know, did not get a fellowship. He got a pharmaceutical sales rep, you know, role right out of pharmacy school. So but as Pamela was talking about before, like, people out of school sometimes sometimes can land these commercial roles, like, right out of school. But, and not but, but then and, you know, after doing that for two years, he has now transitioned to an MSL role at the same company. And I think in like, some of that was in part to, you know, the opportunity that he had to network internally and understand, okay.

Like, what exactly is medical affairs? How can I play a role? How can I translate my now experience in pharmaceutical sales to becoming an MSL? Because that was his ultimate goal, was to become an MSL. So he actually was able to do that exact thing.

And so while I don't think that is, you know, something I hear all the time, I hear more of people starting with an in house medical affairs and then transitioning to field. I do think that it is possible to have that as your stepping stone. Okay. Amazing. Let's see.

We are literally at time, which was super duper quick. I I I wanna fit in one quick question, just because I see I see some others in here that we haven't touched on. I tried to clump a few, but someone, was asking, you know, could you, you know, could you guide me on, like, pretty much how I'm gonna interpret this question is, like, you know, what would be, like, one key takeaway from today's chat, or, like, what's the first step you would advise someone to do as they're, you know, embarking on this journey to get their first MSL role? Yeah. I think, you know, one thing I would say is do your research first.

Obviously, right, you know, do some informational interviews, but maybe do your research first. Know the person that you're talking to. Don't just jump into some of those informational interviews and ask what they do and ask where they live because, technically, that information is available to you on LinkedIn. Right? If you've connected with them on LinkedIn, it's it's much more impressive if you know a little bit about, like, where they've worked, where they live.

And you you can ask AI to give you some insightful questions to ask, but, honestly, you know, like, you know, give it the prompt. Like, what are 10 insightful questions I can ask a PhD or a farm day or an MD that's an MSL at, you know, Amgen if I have an inspiring MSL that wants to work in, like, rare disease or something. Right? So then, it kinda gives you a base because sometimes those you don't want those meetings to be awkward, so it gives you questions to ask. But, again, I think, like, AI is gonna be your friend, so that might be my one thing.

Try to practice with AI. Do your research before you have conversations with people so you can feel more confident. Definitely. Amazing. And, we have one minute left, so I'm just gonna answer this question quickly.

So would you recommend starting with a device company versus a drug company than trying to break into the MSL role? So some device companies actually have MSL roles, so you can definitely look into that. There also are are some health tech companies and consumer tech companies that are looking to also incorporate MSLs if that's something you're interested in. And I would say, you know, it doesn't I I wouldn't say it's necessarily a a detriment if you start with a device company or a tech company and then transition to a drug company. It's just how do you get that transferable experience.

Is the transferable experience an MSL role in a different sector? That's cool. Or is it a clinical role where you're actually interacting with health care providers, you're educating, you're thinking about, you know, payers, like, all of these other sorts of aspects that, you know, can come together and make you a successful MS cell. So it's more about the transferable experience and getting your foot in the drawer with your first MSL role. Because once you have that first one, it's so much easier to get your next one and then move up.

So I would I would look at it more in that way. And we're out of time. Oh my gosh. That was so quick. But thank you so much to everyone for these amazing questions.

Wow. Like, this was so great, so interactive. And thank you, Pamela, for your for your insight. It was awesome. If you wanna connect with either of us, please do not hesitate to reach out to either of us via LinkedIn.

And if you wanna learn more about The MSL Academy and the programs and services that we have for aspiring MSLs, you can reach out to me or check out www.MSLAcademy.com. Alrighty. Well, thank you so much, and Thanks, everyone. Talk to you. Yeah.

Bye bye. Bye.