From Retail Pharmacist to Amgen Regional Director: How to Break into the MSL Role

Hello, and welcome to another episode of office hours. I feel like our last episode was so recent, but it really it's already been a few weeks. So we're just so excited to be back today. We have another guest, with us today, Dr. Danielle Jones. So, as people are are trickling in, do you wanna share a little bit about your background and a little bit about what you do now?

Yeah. Absolutely. So welcome everybody, and thank you Swati for allowing me to have a little time with the audience and just to share a little bit of my story. Before I get started though, I do have to do a legal disclaimer. So the words that I'm about to express in this presentation are my own and not necessarily reflect those of Amgen.

Now we got that out the way, we can talk. So, I am a pharmacist by training, clinical pharmacist by training. I have been in industry for a little over five years now. So I started my matriculation to pharmacy. I went to Spelman College, got a BS in chemistry, and then went to the University of Tennessee, obtained my PharmD.

Now from there, I won't tell you the year that I graduated, but I will say that I did thirteen years in retail and managed a store for nine and a half years. So from there, it was during COVID time, and I was, you know, a little burnt out as much of us a lot of us are, when it comes to work in retail and having those long hours. And I was like, no. I've always knew about the MSO role, but I didn't know anybody who was actually an MSO. So I did what most other people do.

I reached out to my internal network, and I simply asked the question. Is anybody in my network an MSL? And if you are, can I talk to you? And when that happened, I was able to connect with people I had never met in my entire life. I mean, I was on LinkedIn.

I was on Facebook asking questions from people, and, I was introduced to a career coach. And that career coach then, helped to form and shape my resume, helped me to understand the MSL role, and thus led me to my first MSL job, which was now five years ago. So that's kind of a long story short of how I started. My story is not unique. I know many people ask how did you transition from retail and how did you figure out, you know, the MSL role?

I mean, literally, I will say it is a lot of networking. It's a lot of hard work. It is investing in yourself and being and putting the time in because there is a very distinct difference than what you do in a retail or hospital setting, than what you do when you come into industry. And so I know we'll get into a lot of that here later, but that's kind of a long story short, where I am today. Amazing.

And so for those people who are just dipping their feet in, they're just starting to learn about what an MSL is. Could you break down, you know, what it is that you do and how you would define what an MSL is? So the MSL role is very complex. I mean, it does vary from company to company. But, however, the core principles are the core principles.

So you, initially, do need to be, have the scientific acumen and have the, ability to communicate scientific data and information. That's it's something that we as pharmacists do every day when it comes to counseling patients, when it comes to with providers and talking to PBMs. You are constantly doing this every single day. And so you have to be able to communicate to, I. E, a hiring manager if you're trying to transition out, that the scientific data is the scientific data, and you have to be able to communicate that in a clear, concise way.

Not only do you have to do it in a clear, concise way, but you also have to be non biased biased. It is not your research. It is not have your it is not your paper. You are not the author on the paper. You are simply there to present the data as it is written and published.

That is it. You allow the provider to make the decision on what they want to do with the information that you provided for them. With that, you do have to be current. You cannot provide full data because data and science is changing on a daily basis, especially if you're in some of these higher impact therapeutic areas. Some of your other therapeutic areas, the science has not changed very much in the last couple years.

There may be some newer publications, maybe just some updates. But depending on the therapeutic area that you were interested in, I e oncology, that changes very quickly. And so you have to be clear, you have to be concise, you have to be current, and then you have to be relatable. Essentially, this job is all about relationship building. And and having a trust you want your providers to be able to call you if they have a question about a a patient or if they have had an adverse event or they're trying to work through whatever networks or PBMs they have to work through or if they're interested in going to conferences and congresses.

They wanna be able to talk to you about what's latest, what's the latest and greatest thing, how can they get into, either conference or congress? Maybe even being the speaker for your company, being on an ad board for your company. Those are the types of conversations and relationship building that you have to be able to have and have a trust factor in knowing that they can trust you with that type of information and that you are going to be able to relay that information back to your company. Now the currency when it comes to MSL role is all about your insights. The only way that you are going to get quality insights from your providers and they're not just looking at you stone faced is if you actually talk to them and let them talk.

I always tell people the main thing about the MSL role is that you listen more than you speak. You ask those open ended questions, but your job is to gain the insight. You don't data dump. You don't just provide a whole bunch of stats and charts and Kaplan Meier plots. All those things are wonderful.

However, your job is to listen. And when you're listening intently and listening for a purpose, those are the good quality insights that help to shape medical strategy, and that's what gives you your credibility with the company. Amazing. That was great. And I have so many follow-up questions about so many of the aspects that you talked about.

So, you know, what would you say to someone who is you know, they're an aspiring, you know, industry professional. They might be a clinician. They might be in academia. They have a PhD, a firm, or an MD. So someone who would qualify to be an MSL.

You know, but they're looking at MSL roles, but they're also looking at sales roles. How would you differentiate those two? So they're very, very different, but you do have a common goal. So I will always say this. Your common goal, regardless if you're sales or commercial or your medical affairs, is a patient.

So as long as you keep the patient first, you're always gonna do the right thing. No matter if you do sales or you go into medical affairs. Now with sales, of course, there's a difference in the way that they have a communication with the provider versus how you as a medical affairs professional will have a communication with the provider. Sales is gonna keep it very high level, very generic. They can only speak what's on the PI.

PI meaning package insert. They are not allowed nor should you ever hear a commercial partner talking off label. That is where you come in as a medical professional. You are able to speak to off label studies and off label research that may provide a little bit more clarity to your providers so they can make sound clinical judgment. But that is really the main difference.

I mean, there are some other nuance is when it comes to, like, dinners and things of that nature that are kinda like in the minutiae. But the the clear difference is that you can speak off label where a sales counterpart cannot. You could provide clinical data where a sales counterpart can only speak to what is approved and branded by the company. Yes. Definitely.

And so if anyone has I see there are quite a few people here live. So if anyone has any questions for Dr. Danielle Jones on her experience, on her background as, you know, her you know, what she's doing day in, day out as a full time MSL, you know, please do not hesitate to drop that in the chat. And as we see questions come in, we'll be answering them. We do have some others that we know that people will appreciate. So we will also ask those, you know, if we don't see things populating in the chat, but do not hesitate.

We we want this to be as engaging as possible. We are just getting started and warming up with a few questions on our end. But, you know, whatever questions are on your mind, that's why we're here today. And whatever we can do to answer them, we're happy to do that. So as we're waiting for some questions to populate, in the chat, I wanted to ask you, you know, from your perspective now that you've started off with being an MSL and you've been promoted, you know, what in your opinion makes you or makes anyone a successful MSL?

What are, like, the three traits would you say that make a successful MSL? So it does vary from company to company. I will say in my general opinion, this is just a high level kind of, top down approach, is that you definitely have to show scientific acumen. You have to be able to demonstrate that you understand your therapeutic area day in, day out because that's why you are getting paid. You're getting paid to be the scientific expert.

And then secondly, you do have to show that you are moving the needle. I when I say that, I'm saying that you have to be able to show that you are taking your providers in your territory on a journey, and it has to be clear. This is a scientific journey. When I tell people that you should not data dump, you should start from wherever the provider is and take them on a journey to where you want to lead them and be able to understand and recognize where each provider is in their journey. So that's key.

Last and but and certainly not least, there are certain nuances that you have to navigate when it comes to industry. It is it's it's a big corporation. It you're not, you know, you're not immune to it. Everybody it is what it is. There's a corporate kind of way that you have to kind of adapt to and show your worth within the company into your managers and take on special projects, be leaders.

Like, for instance, I was a conference lead. I am the lead for, new innovation in our resources. I have led I've mentored numerous of new hires. I have also led our training, sessions for our new hires. And so those are the type of leadership roles within the company that you can show your manager that you are able and willing to help out, be projects, take on some of those stretch roles, and be successful in those stretch roles as well.

And that's some of the ways that you can you can move up a ladder. Wonderful. And we have tons of questions coming in the chat. So, let's start with a few of those. So starting from the top, you know, from a hiring manager's perspective, what makes a candidate stand out both in their application materials and in an interview?

Great question. Great question. So I will say from a and I'm doing an interview next week for some people. So, the thing that we are looking for and it like, once again, it varies from team to team. So the thing that I would always ask if I am going on an interview with a hiring manager is what type of team member do you need?

And let me prep let me say it like this. There are some teams that are very academic. They have a lot of PhDs. They have a lot of MDs who are just straight science people, and they are not very good communicators. We have some teams that have a whole lot of good communicators.

However, they kind of lack the scientific acumen needed in order to have a really good scientific conversation. Now if you're a good manager, you kinda have a mixture of both. You have some people who can be strong, who can help some of the academics out. Then you have some of the academics who can help some of the more conversational, team members out. So you can you definitely wanna add your hiring manager what team member or what is that what is it on the team that you need because that will vary from team to team, therapeutic area to therapeutic area.

Because there are certain therapeutic areas, and I use oncology because it is so robust, that the conversation with those providers, they don't care about conversation. They wanna hear the science, and they want you to get out of there. Now if you're in dermatology or if you're in, like, body con where it's, like, a little bit more a little less stringent, where nobody's typically, you know, on their dev bed, essentially, then that team may need somebody who is a little bit more have a little bit more fluff to them, a little bit more conversation, a little bit more personality. So it does vary from team to team, and it does vary from therapeutic therapeutic area to therapeutic area. And so it really is imperative for you to ask what is needed for your team, what type of candidate are you looking for, and you essentially need to mirror mirror what is whatever it is that the hiring manager has told you.

Another thing that you can do, ask the team. I mean, I've had so many people. We have a opening who saw opening on our team who has reached out and said, hey. What type of team member do y'all need? Do you need academic?

Do you need somebody that's more conversational? Depends on the therapeutic area. If you're in the South, you may not have to be as stringent and, you know, super robust and all that stuff on this list. But if you're in the Northeast, you have, like, your your Harvards and your Yales and your, you know, Princeton's or whatever. Those type of academic institutions require a different type of personality.

So it does vary. So it's hard to say that there is a one size fit all answer because it does vary from region to region and therapeutic areas as well. Now in an interview, I will say, I've I've somebody told me this a long time ago. It's kinda like you're on a date. You, you definitely want the person to invite you back.

You want to also be just conversational enough where they would wanna invite you out for a drink. And so there has to be a level of engagement, authenticity, because we have seen boring interviews. And we are like, okay. They're great on paper, but if you I put them in front of a room of 50 people, are they gonna bore everybody to death and nobody will come back to the program? So we I mean, great on paper, but, unfortunately, your present your presentation skills just don't match.

And, unfortunately, we would pass on somebody who may not be as academically strong as that candidate. But if they can keep our attention and be engaging, then we will give them what it is. Because at the end of the day, we teach you the science. We will teach you everything you need to know so you don't have to worry. Like, every scientific paper, we will teach you about it.

We'll have a conversation about it so you don't have to worry about the science. That's something I can teach, but I cannot teach personality. Yeah. That makes sense. And the other thing I would add too is that even when you're sending out your application, Daniel, you hit this a little bit, but I I wanna drive it home even more is that if you see a job posting, not only applying on the website, but also looking on LinkedIn to see you know?

And LinkedIn is incredible. I always say this. There's a search bar. You can literally search for the company. And then under the people category in the company, you can search for medical science liaison.

And then in that, you can find, like, okay, who is in the cardiometabolic team? And you can find someone in that team and get the insider scoop on what's going on, you know, asking the question like you mentioned, like, what sort of team member are you looking for? So it's not only just submitting your applications into the ether, it's also pairing that with, you know, this kind of personal connection. And then if you all hit it off, like, I definitely would not suggest if it's the first time you're meeting to ask them to put in a referral, but they may offer it. And that's something I can say from personal experience.

I did this exact thing, and someone put in a personal referral, and they said at the end of the call, like, I'm so happy to refer you for this. You'd be a great fit. But I didn't ask for it. I just demonstrated my value in the call with the questions that I asked, and then they were able to put in a referral. So that's something to consider.

Every company does referrals super differently. So some companies I'm learning recently or in the last few years, like, they don't even look at referrals. Other ones, it's like a huge deal to get a referral, and it puts you to the top of the list. So totally depends the company. I won't call any out right now, but every company does it very differently.

So that's something to keep in mind. The other thing is for every single application you're sending out, I suggest just tweaking your resume just just a little bit every time. Because one thing that you'll notice when you start applying to different companies, you know, this is so company specific, some companies don't even call it a an MSL. Some companies call it a thought leader liaison or a key opinion director. Yeah.

Exactly. And so I would definitely ensure that if you are putting, you know, experiences that speak to KOL management, so key opinion leader management, or the fact that you spoke to health care providers or worked cross functionally across different departments, see the terminology they put in the job description and just copy and paste. Do a control f replace and just replace all those same, you know, like, acronyms and those same terms with the way the company speaks. Because even before you get a hiring manager interview, you're gonna go through a random algorithm. Okay.

Not but you're gonna go through an algorithm. And when you go through the algorithm, they're gonna be looking for those key terms. And if you have KOL everywhere, but they actually call it a TL or a thought leader or some equivalent, then you're not even gonna make it to the hiring manager stage because you're not speaking their language. So you have to do a little bit of that background research to understand, okay, is this resume even gonna get past the the AI algorithm even before I speak to a hiring manager or even before that, an HR person? So those are just some additional things, like, from a tangible perspective that I would add.

Oh, yeah. I would definitely say I have at least four different versions of my resume. Yeah. And I will say that and and great points that you just made. Like, per I mean, another thing I would add to that, cut out anything that's not pertinent to the role that you're applying for.

If you're applying for a nephrology role, I do not care what you did in cardiometabolic unless it was medical affairs related. Now if it was medical affairs related, that's great. But if you did all this work in a hospital or you worked in a retail setting, don't really care. You're not looking for a retail job. I'm looking to hire you as a medical affairs, counterpart.

So please, please, do, please cut out anything that's fluff, that is not pertinent to the role that you want. And that was, really the best advice somebody gave me when I was applying because my resume read as though I was still applying to be a pharmacy manager somewhere. And the lead MSL director at a company took one look at it and said, you have twenty four hours to fix it. She said, I loved you in person. I love having a conversation with you, but you have twenty four hours to resubmit your resume to me.

And guess what I did? I resubmitted my resume. Yeah. And so Yeah. This is this is incredible, and it actually leads into another question that was asked, is like, you know, this it looks like this person comes from a pharmacy background.

And so since you came from retail pharmacy without specific therapeutic residency or area expertise, how did you highlight or land your first therapeutic area? I love this question. I have really strong opinions on this question. So would love to have you start because this is literally exactly what you did, and then I'll add my 2¢. So I will say that as a retail pharmacist or even a hospital pharmacist, you are doing the MSL role.

You just don't know how to communicate it. You're actually doing it. You're having scientific conversation. You're reading scientific data. You're relaying that information to HCP, which could be called the KML or e I one company I called it the EE.

We call OLs, opinion leaders, whatever the case may be. But you read the data, you present it, you let them make a clinical judgment, and then you go on with it. You're doing the MSO role. And every time I talk to a pharmacist, I'm like, you're doing the actual work. You just have to learn how to put the pieces together for a hiring manager to show them and demonstrate that you understand things that you were doing on a daily basis do transfer into industry.

That is it. You're doing it. You're actually doing the work. Now the only thing I will say that you're probably not doing is being able to connect the dots. Now what we're not gonna do in a interview is connect the dots for you.

You do have to be very clear and be very concise and put the pieces together for hiring managers in order for them to be able to say, okay. They know what they're doing. They know how to transition it into a MSL role. I don't necessarily have to teach that or coach them into that. That's the thing.

You're doing every single thing that we would do except for you're doing it in multiple therapeutic areas. The only thing I have to worry about is the kidneys. I don't have to worry about anything else in the body. I'm only talking about one specific part of the body, and that is it. You have to talk about it in multiple context to multiple different people in a literally fifteen minute span.

And you have to go from cardiology to dermatology to neurology all in the same afternoon. So you can easily if you if you get the right person to help you connect the dots, you're doing the work. You just have to be able to put it together so somebody else will understand that you know what you're doing. That's exactly what I was going to say, because I hear so many pharmacists, especially those who didn't do a residency, and they feel stuck in retail. And I'm like, do you understand you are kind of a Jack or Jill of all trades because you can apply to nearly every therapeutic area that you were touching or interacting with.

The only thing is going back to the previous, you know, comment that we both made before, if you are sending out your resume to a cardiometabolic role, then a nephrology role, then a dermatology role, ensure that you have a different version of your resume to speak to this is the one specifically where this company calls it a KOL, this company calls it an MSL, and this company specifically, this role is for nephrology. And so you are, like, checking all of those specific boxes that when you send it, you'll go past the algorithm, and you'll be able to demonstrate how you can be effective in that particular therapeutic area. But, honestly, it's like pharmacists, internal medicine, physicians, family medicine, like, the ones that see so many therapeutic areas really lend itself to an amazing opportunity to cast such a wide net. But also there's amazing things too. If you did a residency in cardiology, then you can be, like, the top of the pile because you're like, okay.

Not only did I do a residency, but I have so much therapeutic expertise, and I've stayed up to date on, like, everything going on in this space in addition. If you're staying in that same region, you already have connections with other providers in that region, which is all the time. You work in the hospital with your top dumpsters. You name drop. I name drop so many people from the hospital even though I didn't work with them in five years.

I was like, oh, yes. I have a very and I and I did have a very good relationship when I was there. But I was like, oh, yes. You know, I have a very close relationship with this doctor, that doctor. You know?

You you you are speaking to the top KOLs or the top opinion leaders who we as MSLs are trying to get connections with. So if I wouldn't do anything else, I would form those bonds now and keep them strong and keep them tight Because you're gonna need them when you start talking to these hiring managers and you wanna sell yourself and say, I have been in this space in Tampa, Florida, and I know all the top positions in Tampa, Florida because guess what? This is where I've been for the last ten years. I work with the top docs in the hospital. I've talked to everybody in the community.

I know all the surgeons, and we already you already have your internal network. That's your audience. That is what that's half the battle of what we do as MSL is identifying key people in our therapeutic area. You've already got a leg up. Absolutely.

Yep. Amazing. So, someone's asking, you know, what career coach did you use? So this actually feeds into another question I wanted to ask about. You know, what was the pivotal moment that really helped you land your first role?

Was it coaching, mentorship? What program did you do? We'd love to hear about that. So it's a combination of everything. So I'm not gonna say it's one thing that led to the other.

I will say that preparation plus opportunity equals success. And so in preparation, I did use, the MSL Academy, when it was called a different name back way back when, but now it's transformed into MSL Academy. And I took it very seriously. I mean, I spent my money on it. I was like, this is what I'm going to do.

I had the support of my husband at the time, and he was like, look. Do whatever you need to do. And so I went full throttle. I was listening to podcasts. I was engaging in conversation with the, you know, all the civil societies and MAPS and things of that nature.

At the time, I wasn't able to attend MAPS, but I was able to listen in on some Muslim sessions on virtual because at the time, it was during COVID. So a lot of things were online at the time. So I will say bunch of recordings on their website for free, by the way. So I would check that out. Mhmm.

Check it out. Get on there. MSL talk. I was on that. I listened to that every single night on my way home from my retail job and on my way in.

And so that in combination with that and to be perfectly honest, I was at the right place at the right time because my hiring manager at the time and this is and I tell this story because you never ever wanna burn a bridge because you never know what bridge you might have to walk back over when, you know, you need to cross over to the other side. The hiring manager was friends with a guy that I trained years ago, And they were friends in pharmacy school. I didn't even know they knew each other. But as as you know, the world is one degree of separation. It was one call to say, hey.

She was my manager. She trained me. She was awesome. And, I mean, I got him to where he was in the company, and he was like, if you don't hire her, you're crazy. And that was that was that was how I got my interview.

Now I started to ace my interview, and I started to do a presentation and all that wonderful things. But networking and I'm gonna tell you guys, networking, networking, networking. You never ever wanna leave anybody with a bad taste in their mouth about you because you never know who that person may be on the next end of your interview. Oh, who know and who don't know anybody. Like, in real life, this community is very small.

I'm very sure that just everybody in this room, somebody knows somebody or has a connection with somebody that somebody else knows. And that's what I'm saying. You never know who you're gonna meet. You always have to give them just your genuine heart. Be as good as you can and as nice as you can.

Be as authentic as you can because that could come back and get you. So I will I'll I'm always agree that, you know, people don't people forget what you say. People forget how, you know, what you what you did, but they never forget how you made them feel. That's what I end every interview with. When everybody asked me what my mantra is, I forget all my stats.

I forget, you know, how efficacious my drug is. They'll forget all of my safe data. But did I make them feel comfortable with using my product or coming to me if they have a issue? That's that's key key. Absolutely.

And this leads into another great question. So, you know, what's the most rewarding part of your job, or what gives you the most job satisfaction? Well, I will say this. In retail and it's it's very different, because I love my patients. I did.

I had a great time. I wouldn't stay there for nine and a half years if I was completely unhappy. I would never ever say that. I had a great staff. I hired a great team around me.

We were very engaged in the patients in our community, and that was great. But once you get into an industry role, you realize that the impact that you have globally on millions of patients is something that you just it's hard to even quantify or kinda understand until you get into it and you start seeing movement of your drug. I mean, granted, we are not here to sell a product. However, the company is they have to make a profit. And the only way you can see how, you know, good your science is is if people are using your drug.

It just is what it is. Right? But the impact that you have globally and the amount of patients you can reach just beyond your community, beyond your hospital setting, it's one of those things that it just gives you a feeling that you are making a difference in thousands of patients' lives. When if you get into the research and you get into the science and you really start talking about it and you really get into these, like, international conferences, and these are the thought leaders who are writing guidelines, and the stuff that you're talking about gets into a guideline, you're like, woah. This is insane.

Like, granted, I love my like, once again, I love my patients. I don't care to touch anybody anymore. I don't care to give a vaccine anymore. I am okay with not ever doing that a day in my life. But having that connection and being able to shape guidelines, that's something pretty powerful.

It really is. Yeah. That's awesome. And now we're hopping back actually to, a question about the interview process. So how many pages is the right amount for a CV or a resume?

I would say and and it varies. Now if you have a lot of publications and you wanna, you know, submit, you know, sub supplement of all your publications, that's great. Please don't put on the resume. Just we'll ask you for your supplemental if we care about it, if it's pertinent to our therapeutic area. Two, maybe three.

But, yeah, two to three is a lot is enough to for us to get a general sense of who you are. I do not necessarily care what you did ten years ago unless it was very pertinent to this role. So I will say and even with my resume, my resume is very strong in medical affairs. I have maybe a blurb of what I did for the last thirteen years in retail pharmacy because that's what? That's not what my job that's not what I want.

That's not the job I'm looking for. So I maybe put four or five bullet points, but I have 10 to 15 on each one of my medical affairs roles. And once again, they are very tailored to what the job I want. Next. So to nephrology, then I really and I used to be a clinical pharmacist at Fresenius for a couple years, and so I beefed up all of my clinical work at Fresenius and died down what I did in a Walgreens, and then I died down a little bit more than what I did in a in my first industry role because this was a nephrology role, and I had nephrology experience.

So I beefed that up all the way. Amazing. Yeah. I I would agree. Like, two to three pages is great.

I love the recommendation of a supplemental. If you have other things that you'd like to include that could be pertinent, but, again, ensure, like, is this actually going to apply to the role and my success in this role if I were to land it? And I would view anything that you submit under that lens. And if you're like, perhaps not, then I would I would consider not doing it, especially if you're newer in your career too. I would not include things that you did, like, in pharmacy school or in your PhD, like, solely once you are like, once you've begun your role, or begun your career.

But, again, like, it has to be pertinent. Yeah. It has to be pregnant. It has to be specific to what you what you're looking for. Yeah.

And what they're looking for for that mother. Exactly. Exactly. Okay. So the next question is how can PhDs without clinical experience position themselves on a resume to demonstrate readiness for an MSL role?

I love this question because I've heard this question so many times, and, again, I have strong feelings. Would love to hear, would love to hear your answer. So I will say, typically, PhDs, of course, you did your dissertation in something very specific. I would land try to land my first industry role in exactly what you did your PhD in. If you did it in microbiotics or you did in immunology and you, you know, did some rat study or some cat study or whatever the study may be in immunology and immunogenicity, then I would look for a company that is very strong in biologics.

That's exactly that's what I would do. If you did something in health care, if you did something in HIV, I would only start applying to HIV companies. And so that's where I would start because that's what you're strong in. If you are if you're a little bit more fluid and it may not be as specific, it really does depend on what you got your PhD in and the type of role that you may get. If you don't have a specific clinical PhD, then you may kinda lend yourself into psych homes, which is a great way to get into industry.

Don't get Scientific communications. Yeah. I'm sorry. Yeah. Scientific communication.

That is an excellent way to transition into industry if you don't have any direct clinical patient experience, and your PhD may not be in anything in the biologics or anything anything very specific when it comes to patient care. If it's something a little bit more general, I would definitely look into scientific communications, maybe medical writing. There are so many other avenues to get into industry that you can be a medical digital director, which I didn't even know even existed until today that somebody was asking me about a medical medical digital director. I was like, that sounds like a cool job. I mean, it's combining AI and medicine and really just helping to shape the company's AI presence in medical affairs.

I'm like, for somebody who is really fun who really enjoys all that, that's a fun way to get in the industry. And then once you get in, that's when you kinda navigate and you see all the different roles. And you're like, okay. I did this for a year and a half. Don't necessarily care for it.

You see another opening. You get an internal referral. You you choose. I mean, I always tell people medical affairs is so fluid. Like, we come, we go.

For some people, it's scary. I know when somebody first told me that they have changed jobs, what, five times in the past ten years. Like, you only stay with company for, like, two years and you kinda move on. I'm like, wait a minute. I have the same company for thirteen.

Did I did I age myself out? Did I do something wrong? But in medical affairs, you are always constantly trying to grow. And the only way you can grow is if you move from therapeutic area to therapeutic area. I've known some MSLs who've gone into sales because they was like, you know what?

I'm kinda tired of the direct science. I kinda wanna live a little bit of a different life. I don't want a bigger I don't want the huge territory that a medical affairs person has. They wanna kinda stay a little bit more local, maybe hone in to the ACPs in their territory and be a little bit more focused on them and not trying to build out so much. You can go into marketing.

I mean, there's and you can always come back. That's the beauty of it. If you don't like it, you can find another job. But you've got yourself in the door. That's the key.

Getting yourself I would a 100% agree with that, and I love that you brought up some of, like, the stepping stone options. Because oftentimes, like, it can be very competitive. And you might see in a lot of the job descriptions that it says, like, you know, we would prefer candidates that have one to three years or three to five years of MSL experience. If you ask me, I say every job description are suggestions. I don't care if it says required.

I apply anyway, and I've gotten some crazy roles that, like, they would have never considered me otherwise because I had the guts to just apply. Like, you have to you know, what did they say? Like, shoot your shot. Right? Like, you have to try, because you can't yourself deny, you know, you can't deny yourself the opportunity.

But, I mean, other people, like, it's just like they're just trying to figure it out too. So no one's, you know, saying that you suck if you don't get a job. Like, no one's saying that. It's just you're not the right fit for that particular team at that particular moment. As we were talking about before, what if they have a bunch of farm d's already and they're like, we want something we want someone super duper science y, PhD level.

Hopefully, they did their their dissertation in this, and you'd be the right fit for that. So you'll beat out other firm d's and other people that might even have MSL experience because they're looking for someone literally exactly like you. So always apply even if you're like, I maybe fit 50% of those requirements or less, always apply. But, again, rep applying the way that we talked about with the pertinent experience, tailoring your resume, all that good stuff. Reach out to people on LinkedIn from the team.

Do do all the things, but don't count yourself out. So that's the one thing I would say. The other thing I would say is that, like, it really is going to it could depend on, like, what you are interested in, what the company is is interested in. So yeah. Mhmm.

And it changes every day. It changes from the company may be interested in one thing, but your their peer carrier may be interested in something completely different. Yes. Until you try. Oh, the other thing that I was gonna mention about that.

So, going back to some of the stepping stone careers. So because it is so competitive to get into, I love the idea, and I recommend it to people all the time who've tried to apply to MSL roles for a while, and they've been unsuccessful because they haven't found the right team and the right match, and it really is, again, all about that match. I would recommend scientific communications, which is what Danielle brought up already. Again, a lot of companies call this different things. It could be medical communication, scientific communications.

There's also medical information roles. So these are what are considered medical affairs roles, but they're more in house or internal versus external facing or field roles, which is what the MSL role is. So I would recommend that if you're looking for you know, I love medical affairs. I want to you know, maybe you're like, I wanna be an MSL eventually, but this particular way of applying directly has not worked so far. Maybe you get some therapeutic area expertise because you're applying to a medical information role specifically in nephrology, and then you meet all the nephrology team, you meet the MSLs, and then you get that insider scoop on, like, oh, so and so is leaving to, you know, a different company because, you know, they wanna relocate and they wanna explore the West Coast.

There's all of a sudden an opportunity in your region. Let's say you live in the South. There's an opportunity for you to have a great role as an MSL, and they would consider you potentially over someone else just because you already have a bit of that therapeutic area expertise from that medical information role, and you're very familiar with the company already. So you can get that internal referral and be able to transition over to that role, instead of them having to onboard someone completely brand new to the company. So there are a lot of pros in doing it that way.

I would also say let's say you started, you know, company y, and you're like, you know, I'm a medical affairs person internally. I'm a medical information specialist, but I don't love the culture. Mhmm. Go to conferences on behalf of the company. That's your moment to network in person.

Of course, you can also network on LinkedIn for free and all that good stuff too. But if you're going to a conference, that's your opportunity to meet other medical affairs professionals or MSLs at other companies. And because you already have this, like, your door has been opened and you've stepped through the door and you're in pharma as this role, you can be like, okay. I know my next step. I wanna be an MSL, but I don't wanna be at this company.

And so then you can start searching and speaking to people at different companies and evaluate what other cultures could potentially fit you better, and you can still make that transition even if that first role is not exactly what you wanted. And then two, I also would say there are other types of MSL roles. I was no. I was talking to somebody earlier, and they have a very strong business acumen. What used to be like a a pharmacy director.

And And I was like, have you ever thought about being a mosel? And they're like, what is a mosel? I was like, a medical out some outcome science liaison. I was like, that marries your business acumen with your scientific acumen because you are the liaison between the company and the PBMs, or you're the liaison between other pharmacy directors. And that's a great I mean, you already have the inside scoop.

You know how to run a hospital pharmacy. You know how to talk to PBMs. You do it anyway. Why not get paid for it? There's HEOR roles.

I mean, there are also, like, community science liaisons, and we have, liaisons who are who are contracted. And I always tell people too, do not discount some of those contract roles. It does seem a little scary at first to be on a contract role, but it does give you quite a bit insight into being MSL, and then you may get hired on with the company that you were outsourced and contracted with. I know quite a few people who started off as contractors as MSLs, and they've transitioned to now be full time roles. So think of the think of that also as a stepping stone.

You know? You can start that way, and then you can potentially transition to something full time and not contract. Okay. Amazing. We have another question that's come through.

After submitting a resume, what does the hiring process look like? So I was actually gonna ask you to detail this too, Danielle, for especially for people who haven't gone through the process yet and they're newly applying. Would love to, you know, hear how you would describe from let's say, we're submitting the application materials. We creepily message people on LinkedIn. Now what's, like, the next step?

What's gonna happen? So, typically, the next step is that you'll get a call from HR, and they will set up a meeting with the hiring manager. So you do a phone screen, essentially. The phone screen typically lasts between thirty to forty five minutes. They wanna get a high level overview of who you are, what your qualifications are, what do you know about the MSL role, if you've never been in MSL, or why you're transitioning basically from one company to the next.

And then, two, what do you know about this company and why this company? Right? And so if that hiring manager gets a very good feel for you, then you potentially will go on to a panel interview. Now every company is different. I have done a panel interview with everybody at one time.

I have done a panel interview that lasted about three weeks because each and every different person had their own time with all the time they can meet with at this time, on this day, and the next person can only meet on this time, the next week. And then everybody came together the month a month later, And then they ask you all the same questions that they've asked you before, and I think on your in your individuals, and then you do a presentation, essentially. Now the presentation varies from company to company. They may ask you to present on something that you are very familiar with on the sign on the article that that you pick. I've had some companies who have also, picked the article for you and say, here's the article.

You come up with the presentation lasting no more than fifteen to twenty minutes. I've also had a company say, you better not give me more than six slides. So it can range from six slides up to 25. It it it definitely depends on the company and what their requirements are. So that can, you know, be a whole range of things, unfortunately.

But, typically, you all you can always do a panel interview, which will include more more likely than not, the the national director for the team. Then you'll have the both hiring directors for East and West, typically. And then you probably have somebody on the team as one of the team members in the room. And then you may have somebody from, like, Scicom or somebody else like that in the room. So it's typically about four to five people, and they'll talk to you for about an hour, And then they'll give you a fifteen minute, time to present.

Yes. Absolutely. We have two questions that have come in that are we can answer them, I think, together. So the first one is, do you recommend reaching out to recruiters for your first role, number one? And then the second one is what contracting companies do you recommend, in terms of, like, some of the contracting roles we were talking about?

So the last question, companies I recommend, it it it is whatever fits for you. I mean your job is to get in the door so I think they're asking what contracting companies so like the companies that are like the names of. Yeah. Oh like Cineos would be one of them. That's one of them.

Amplity is another one. Oh, I know Sunnios, Amplity. MS MSL, gosh. There's a company was it m MSL something? They contract out too.

But those are the top three. Syneos, IQVIA, Amplity. Those are the ones I know. Yeah. Mhmm.

Yeah. There are some other ones, but those are those would be your top three. And then I recommend what about your opinion on reaching out to recruiters for your first role? Absolutely. You need to get your you need to get your name.

You need to get your face out there because they're the ones who are getting those new referrals for roles. And you wanna make sure that if somebody at, you know, some bio gets, somebody who you know, a company calls them and wants to outsource and needs them to help recruit for a role, especially when it comes to new hire, you wanna be first in this. So what I would do, and I and I have done this, and I do it I used to do it a lot, is that when I was first starting, I sent recruiters a blurb about myself and say, hey I just want to get a time on your calendar, I want to introduce myself because if something comes across your desk I want to be the first person that you think of. And so I would always ask for ten to fifteen minutes on their calendar. Send them a a short little blurb about yourself, what you're looking for, your strong your strong therapeutic areas of interest.

And if something were to come across, then they will contact you. And I would keep them in, like, rotation every six months, so twice a year. So it's not you know, you're not bugging them or anything like that, but you are making sure that you are fresh and top of mind. Because get it let let me it's very clear. Recruiters only get paid if you get the job.

So they're only going to recruit they're only gonna nominate you for a role they think that you're actually gonna get. Get. Because if they do all this work trying to get you into a role and you don't get the role, they don't get paid. So their job is to put you in a position where you would hopefully be successful. And I like the idea too of maintaining that relationship with the recruiter.

I know so many people that got their first role with a recruiter, and then after that, they've continued to maintain that relationship. And just as you mentioned, your medical affairs is very fluid. And not only is it because people are looking to improve themselves, they're also looking to, you know, improve their pay and quality of life, or maybe they wanna experience a different therapeutic area or a different company. And so there are a lot of reasons why people might want to change. But I I I do think that having a recruiter in your back pocket who already knows you, who's already worked with you, who's already helped you get a job before, that's another relationship to continue fostering.

And, again, like, I love the six month check-in because that makes so much sense. Like, six months, like, hey. How's it going? Cool. Like, even when you have a job that you like, because if you're thinking about what's the next step in your career, you'll probably start, you know, looking again at that, like, third check-in, you know, like, eighteen month or twenty four month check-in to be like, hey.

You know, just like putting my feelers out there. You know, is there anything going on, anything interesting? And, you know, they'll also already know you, what you're looking for, what your, you know, what your, you know, what your compensation is even at this role to then be able to connect you with things that will work out for you and for them. And, of course, like, as Danielle mentioned, like, they are wanting to put forth candidates that they think are going to be successful at getting this role because it's not only the way they get paid, but it's also their reputation. So the more candidates they know that are awesome and awesome for different reasons, the better and higher likelihood that you will be put forward for a role that is gonna be a great fit for you.

They wanna get paid, but also their repertoire increases. So it it literally helps them as much as it helps you and vice versa. Yep. Because it makes them look good for their boss that they've placed so many candidates in the right role, and then those candidates were successful. And I still once again, I still have a a great relationship with, several recruiters.

And I get a phone call, and I and I say, hey. Check-in with me every March, April. And once you get in the industry, that'll make sense to everybody, when you get that March, April phone call and you're like, okay. Bonuses are done. You know, evaluations are done.

We need to see where we're gonna move next. Thank you. Yeah. I still get a full goal. And I'm I'm like, you know, I I sometimes you take them, and sometimes you say, you know, I'm happy where I am and not looking to move any anytime soon.

But you always wanna keep a great relationship. I mean, you just never know what may come up. That's literally how I got the role plan now. I woke who to call me and was like, you should really look into it. I was like, oh.

I was happy. I was very happy. I was not looking to switch and change, and I trusted her enough to make the take the call. And that's what led me to my role I am in now. So never know.

Amazing. Well, this has been such a great conversation, arguably one of the quickest hours of my life because literally I just looked up, and it's been fifty five minutes already somehow. So what a great chat. And, honestly, thank you so much for the great question. So many of the questions echoed things that I wanted to ask Danielle, to benefit the audience.

So thank you so much for reading my mind, and I could just read them from the chat instead of my list. We love that. We have time for maybe one more question. If anyone wants to sneak in and give that one last question, we're happy to answer it. And then, we will we will close out.

Or maybe I'll ask the last question because because I I I don't know how much, time between people typing and everything. So, you know, as we're closing out, you know, what would your overarching advice be for, you know, aspiring MSLs regardless of their educational background, regardless of their therapeutic area of interest? What would your, you know, number one tip be for someone who's trying to break in right now? Network. Network.

Network. That is the name of the game. You have the you have the letters behind your name. That will never change. But their your ability to connect and connect to people is one of is what's gonna set you apart.

It's what's going to get you the interviews. It's what's gonna get you the role. And the genuineness of your conversation, That's what's going to help you land your first role because you already got the letters. We know you're smart. Everybody everybody else is smart.

What will set you apart is how you present yourself and how you're able to communicate in an effective way that your audience will go on the journey with you and lead to the same ending that you're require that you that you ask them to go to. So that's one thing I will say. Once again, people forget what you say. They forget what you did, but they'll never forget how you made them feel. And that's something I all once again, I lead that at every interview that I have, that I do, and I hope that the genuineness of the conversations that I have, with not only my providers or with, you know, the audience here is echoed and that you guys feel the passion in my heart and the love for the role that, you know, I've been able to, be a part of for the past couple of years.

So we can. Do not y'all y'all have my name on here first first rule of thought I told y'all to network if if none of y'all don't include me on your LinkedIn profile, then you didn't listen to anything you just said Agreed. Yeah. Definitely add both of us. And don't hesitate to reach out if you have a question here or there.

If you wanna learn more about, you know, working with a coach or, you know, enrolling in a program that can help catapult you into into landing your first role. We have lots of services and programs at the MSL Academy, so you can find out more at www.themslacademy.com. Also, you can, you know, slide into our DMs on LinkedIn and ask us anything there too. Alrighty. Well, thank you so much to everyone who joined live.

Another amazing session, another amazing guest. Thank you, Danielle, for your time. And, we will, of course, have, you know, our ongoing monthly session, so tune in for the next one. Alright. Thank you.