Breaking Into the MSL Role by The MSL Academy™ - Episode 1

Transcription:

Okay. We're officially live. Thank you so much for joining us tonight, Sidonie. Absolutely. It's a pleasure.

Amazing. I am really, really looking forward to diving into your story and your background and and also fielding any questions that come in from from our viewers. So amazing. So first and foremost, let's just kick it right off. Please tell us a little bit about you and a little bit about your background.

Absolutely. So doctor Sidonie Niba, it's such a pleasure and honor to be here. My background, I am a a lot of different things, but, fundamentally, I I see myself as a problem solver. From a professional perspective, many, many years ago, I started out my career in nursing. So worked as a nurse for a while, and then pursued my doctorate in pharmacy.

And, during my time in pharmacy, I had zero clue about the world of medical affairs or MSL. I didn't know about, you know, the pharmaceutical industry, but that was very limited to scientist roles, and sales representatives roles, which I didn't think I'd ever be good at that. So I I went the clinical route. Again, given that nursing background, that was my comfort zone. I worked as an intern throughout my pharmacy school time.

So I was I was in my in my comfort zone within the hospital. So upon graduating, with my PharmD, I pursued a residency with the Duke Health System, focused on general practice pharmacy. From there, I went on to become a clinical assistant professor of pharmacy practice. So teaching at a large academic center, that was also affiliated with a pharmacy school program. So supporting, you know, that's where my love and, joy of mentoring and coaching really came to life because I would mentor and coach, you know, pharmacy students and see them go from coming, especially into the hospital, very intimidated and very afraid.

Most of them would say, I can't deal with blood. I, you know, I can't deal with the hospital and, you know, watching them over a 6 to 8 week transition period become this elevated versions of themselves, was just striking. And it was during my time at, within academia that I, I got to interact more with industry and found out about this amazing career called the medical science liaison career. I decided to throw my hat in the ring, you know, thinking it was just like any other job, you'll apply, you'll get in. Oh, boy.

I was in for a rude awakening. I think about 60 or 70 applications in. I had to stop and go, what in the world is this? What am I up against? And, that's when, you know, just the universe gave me what I needed.

I ended up I had a friend who had she was pursuing a fellowship with Cubist back in the in the day. And, I, I got to ask her about, you know, what this career was and, she sort of started to mentor and coach me, informally. And then I also got introduced to this amazing coach who just, she was really a pivotal, experience for me. They, you know, the time I spent with her was very transformative. And so she served as, really my guidepost and my guiding light throughout my journey.

It took me quite a while to break in to my 1st MSL role, and I remember taking quite a few breaks, which is very common with a lot of the folks I interact with. You get, you know, dejected, you get rejected, and, you decide, okay, I'm done. I'm throwing in the towel. And then, you know, it keeps eating at you and you gotta get back up. And, I think I don't think if I had, the coaches and mentorship that I had, I probably would not have stayed on or stayed the course.

So I landed my first role working with a company based out of, Denmark, and that was a very, very exciting experience. I think it's very important, for MSLs or people that are trying to break in. The first company that you, get a job with can really make or break your experience. I was very fortunate to land a role with a company that was very focused on training and development of their MSLs, and so I got some very, very good experiences. I got to lead a lot of projects.

I got to work with, commercial, team members. I got to, you know, be innovative and dynamic and really just build a lot of things. And so I really, credit that experience with, a lot of my subsequent, successes. Got, you know, grew into from that into a senior MSL position and then started leading MSL teams, and currently I serve as a medical affairs leader within the oncology space. So it's been quite the journey and, but it's been exciting.

I also enjoy coaching and mentoring. I think over the the last 5 or so years, I've helped dozens of individuals, on their journey, whether within or outside of the MSL path. So it's it's truly an honor to see, so many people, you know, and and on this journey and be able to be part of their story. Absolutely. Yeah.

Thanks so much for sharing. We do have a question already in the chat. Wow. Yeah. Someone is asking how many months did it take you to break into the MSL role, like land your first one?

And if you could add a little more detail about what that experience was like, I was actually gonna ask you that as well. Oh, yeah. If you could add a little bit more color to, you know, what was the interview process like, and and what did you learn along the way? Yeah. Yeah.

So whoever asked, you'd be surprised. It didn't take months. It took years. So news flash. It took me about a year and a half.

And, and that was with probably a year and 2 more months worth of active application and networking and getting in front of the right people. But that being said, I think it's easier today, believe it or not, than it was 10 years ago, I really do think so. So it took me a really long time and 100 of applications. Now in terms of just the my tactical execution and the plan, right, I leveraged, my coach at the time, leveraged her network. She really was more of a sponsor for me, and she would get me in front of as many people as she could.

I will say the very first time she asked me for a copy of my resume, I sent her my CV, which I had used to get into residency and get into academia. And she wrote me back. She says, this is not gonna work. She said, no wonder no one's calling you. And so I had it was a it was a a rude awakening moment because and what that taught me is what I try to teach, you know, my mentees and, coaches is you, you have one shot, right?

At making a good impression when you submit your resume or cover letter to a hiring manager or refer someone who's referring you. So you've gotta put your best foot forward. My resume did not speak MSL at all at the time. It just it's both clinical pharmacist. And while I have the skillset to do an MSL role or to be in a phenomenal MSL, I was not marketing myself in that light, and it showed.

So I had to go through the process of revamping my resume, and she and I, you know, worked on it quite a bit. And so after that, I started to get calls. So I got my first call from a contracting company. They tend to have a lower threshold for hiring, folks without experience, and, the interview process was pretty robust. Of course, you go through an interview with the recruiter.

They may give you pointers on your resume, how to optimize it if they like you. And they'll give you a chance to go back and, optimize it before they send it to the hiring manager. The lady that I talked to, she was fantastic. And till this day, I I still give her a lot of credit for just helping me in that period, just with working my resume. It was for a role in infectious diseases.

And, I interviewed with the hiring manager. I I was, you know, advanced to to the last round, which was the scientific presentation. And this tends to be the typical trajectory. It's not not the same for every company, but that tends to be be the most likely path. And so I had to do a scientific presentation and I started to my my experience in academia had helped me.

Right? I know how to build, scientific decks. I knew how to put a scientific story together. So my strength was really in that, and I I excelled in that. I put a really good presentation together, and I I made my family sit in the living room.

And I probably rehearsed, like, 8 times. They they they knew that presentation inside out by the time I was done. And then I flew into Atlanta. That's where the final presentation was, and I I gave it my best. And, I could tell they were impressed, but I didn't get that job.

And I was told that I didn't get the job because I didn't have experience. And I was so disgruntled. I went, but you knew this before you fool me out to Atlanta. So they gave it to someone who had more experience than I did. And while I was, you know, you know, I felt really bad and I was, it was a lot of preparation.

I mean, the number of hours that MSL candidates put in, I think, that's not well recognized and well acknowledged. There's so much time that gets spent prepping for these interviews and these, these experiences that, you know, when you're not in that seat, you tend to forget. But that was my first rejection. I had many more after that. In the interest of time, I'm not gonna go through that.

But, the one thing that I do remember when I finally landed my role many, many months after that was I got better with every rejection. You know, every time I talk to a a different hiring manager, every time I talk to a different recruiter, I try to gather as many tips and pearls as I could, and then I would then apply those in my subsequent conversations. And so, the role that I was finally called for was in a territory that no one wanted. Right? And I think this is something that, folks that are trying to break into the role should keep in mind, like go for the, go for the fruit that nobody else wants, you know, those territories, the white spaces, I was willing, I wanted it bad enough to where I was willing to move to wherever I could in the country and, and flexibility is another key thing when you're looking for a role.

And so there was that territory. And then there was Texas. I really wanted Texas, but the hiring manager had made it very clear that she wanted someone who had experience and who understood Texas Medicaid and could present, in front of, you know, P and T committee, which I mean, I'd done that, but she wanted someone who had done it on the pharma side. And so, when I went in for my final interview with this role, I remember going through my presentation and I could see where she shifted. I could literally it was a it was a very visceral response.

I could see her shift her perspective of me from, okay, maybe she could handle Texas. And I I could tell when that light bulb moment went off for her. And, after my interview, she came up to me and asked me if I actually would be interested in Texas. And I just chuckled inside. I went, you you don't say.

So that's how I landed my first role in the state of Texas. Yeah. Amazing. And so one of the things that you've talked about many times is the importance of having that mentor, someone who served as, you know, an advocate for you, whether that was through networking or putting you in front of the right people. Can you speak a little more about how mentorship has impacted your journey, whether that's, you know, from being a clinician all the way to to what you're doing now?

Oh, absolutely. I think everybody needs to have a mentor, and not just necessarily in your professional life, which you should, but in in any area that you feel like you need to grow, you really need to have someone that can be, a supportive presence for you, that ideally has done what you're trying to do before and can give you the support that you need. So it's it's a must have. I have mentors. I have many mentors.

Not too many, but enough in every area that I'm trying to grow into to where I recognize that I I have a lot to learn, I have a lot of growing to do. The one thing I will say about mentorship is, and I have been a victim of this, don't waste your mentor's time. Right? Because, while mentors and coaches are going to guide you and give you the resources and tools that you may need, they also have the expectation that you're going to do your part. Right?

Because at the end of the day, you have to own your success. So that's the only thing I will say about mentorship is get one and don't waste their time. You know, you've got to you have to put in the work and put in the time. I spend many, many hours coaching a lot of individuals that just ghosted me. And, you know, they'd get they'd get exhausted.

They'd get, you know, they'd they'd see the new shiny object, and they'd pursue that now. And, you know, all those hours spent I mean, it is part of of of the experience. But if there's one thing I will say is just commit, you know, and and just feel just get through it, get through it. The other side of it is always going to be positive. And if you don't get the job, you would have learned so much along that journey that you can then apply it to any other aspect of your life.

Yeah. I absolutely agree. It's like sometimes even when you don't get the role, just the entire process of even getting to the final interview and being in that pressure cooker situation and then coming out on the other side, you still feel like, you know, of course, after the, like, maybe after they tell you you didn't get it, then you can digest that. Then the next step is always like, wow, I learned so much from that. And the next is I'm gonna do even better.

So I'd I'd definitely know where you're coming from. Yes. Having a growth mindset. Yes. The growth exactly.

Exactly. And I think that actually ties in really well to my next question, which I was going to ask. You know, when like, I've talked to so many people who are trying to break in to become an MSL. What would what advice would you give them when, you know, they're kind of, you know, like, I've tried it for x amount of months. Mhmm.

I'm really not having anyone respond to me. Or maybe I'm getting 1st or second round interviews, but I'm actually not getting to that final stage and I'm not getting the role. What advice would you give to them? And this could also be, you know, advice that you wish that you knew years ago. Yes.

Absolutely. I think it depends. If if they if they have, someone that's mentoring and coaching them along the way, I would advise them slightly differently than if they don't. For those that may not have someone helping them strategically through the process, they need to get someone. It doesn't have to be a paid coach.

It could be a mentor. There's so many people that are willing to help you on this journey. You just have to ask. So ask for help. You know?

There's so much, I didn't know about this process that I wish I had known back then. Talk to people that have done it and done it well and succeeded, ask them how they did it. And while their story may not be your story, you're going to learn something from every single person you talk to. LinkedIn is of course a beautiful platform. Send an email, send a message.

Someone will talk to you. They'll respond and just start, start to gather information about, you know, what you could be doing better. The other recommendation I would give is ask for feedback, you know, as much as most recruiters and it's they've gotten more notorious lately. They will just ghost you. I mean, it's terrible how many recruiters will not even acknowledge you after you don't get a job.

But for those few recruiters and hiring managers that that will ask how you did, ask for their their feedback on what you could work on better or how you could improve. And then in addition to that, don't take anything for granted. You know, I think most people approach the MSL job acquisition process like they do most other jobs. And when you look at the demographic of the people that are going after MSL jobs, they're usually in well paying jobs anyway. And so there's a mindset of what's the worst that could happen.

I'll just go back to making 6 figures. Like you know? So your why has to be very strong. You have to have a very powerful why. And when you think about what the MSL job confers, there's so much to the role that you really should be excited and motivated to get it done by any means necessary.

So if it means, you know, getting a coach to help you prep for your interview, you know, rehearsing your presentations, going back through journal club 101, and learning how to put a presentation together, by any means necessary is the advice I would give. For those that, do have a mentor, I would say, try to get in front of your mentor as often as possible and get them to do a lot of mock interviews with you and mock presentations with you, and challenge them to become a sponsor. Right? You know, you always want to transition your mentors and coaches to become sponsors. That's where you hit the gold, where they are so confident in your ability that they are willing to go make an introduction on your behalf.

But in order for them to do that, you have to earn their trust and their you know, you have to you have to make sure that you're ready, because I I certainly don't introduce folks that I don't feel are ready to make a good impression, to my network. So you also have to make sure that you're approving and you're making, a strong enough effort to a place where your mentor will transition to become a sponsor and make it their life's work to get you into the role. Yes. I would agree. Amazing.

And for those of you, you know, who are attending now who might not be familiar with what the MSL role is, I think it'd be great because we keep talking about the role and how incredible it is and, you know, needing the flexibility and the, you know, travel that's involved. We've hinted at so many of these different things, but I'd love it if you would just give your definition of what an MSL is. Yeah. I think in in one word, you're a connector. A medical science liaison is an individual, with a scientific background and training that serves as a connection between the medical affairs department of a pharmaceutical company and the scientific community.

And that looks very different, you know, in in in many different companies. But the role has some fundamental elements to it. You're largely focused on building relationships with the scientific community. That's one of the main pillars of your role, providing education about your company's portfolio, to that community, and also bringing back actionable information to the company that informs medical and corporate strategy. So that's probably a summary of it, but, there's more to be found on the MSL Academy's website.

But, yeah, in in, you know, most most, the degree holders within the life sciences field, pharmacists, medical doctors, PhD holders, doctors of nursing practice, physician's assistants as well, are candidates for the MSL position. You usually manage a territory that gets assigned to you and, work within a therapeutic area, AKA disease state for the clinical folks. And you're really responsible for managing that ecosystem in a manner that's mutually beneficial to the company and the community. Incredible. Thank you.

We actually have another question in the chat. So thank you for sharing your story and advice, Sedoni. I also second that. I'm a PhD with postdoc experience and wondering if there is a way to get some specific experience, maybe volunteer somewhere, question mark, that would help my resume get more attractive? And I'm assuming this is to a hiring manager to land an MSL role.

Mhmm. Yes. Yes. So for PhDs, I think they tend to have an advantage in the sense that they've usually done some sort of training in a specific or niched area. A lot of their research work may have been done within some sort of, disease state specific areas such as maybe oncology or immunology or, maybe neuro neuroscience, dermatology.

So it just depends. Without having specifics, I would say the low hanging fruit for most most PhDs is look at the your research work on your body of work and look at try to match that up to existing disease states or clinical work. Now, the challenge tends to be clinical experience. Most PhDs are very scientific, but sometimes that real world clinical experience tends to be a limiting factor. There are many ways in which you can you can upskill in that area.

1, learn as much as you can, do a lot of research, talk to pharmacists. My first rule, I had a counterpart who was a PhD and we were best friends. I would hit him up every time those are deeply scientific questions. I'd say, what are they talking about? What receptor has done what?

And he would come to me and say, what is PNT? So lean into the people that have this experience. Right? Now, in terms of courses that you could take, I don't know that there's any PhD specific course that'll get you that exposure to the clinical space, and I don't think that you need it. I think your goal as a PhD is to get in front of a hiring manager and prove to them that you can do the job, And you can get in front of a hiring manager, that's actually the easy part.

You can leverage your network, you can leverage tools, you can leverage conferences, you can leverage meetings and you get in front of 1. The more important thing is when you get in front of them, you better be ready to defend your experience. And that's why it's important that you understand the real world clinical implications of this job. What do MSLs do? What is the day to day?

What are clinicians looking for when you're interacting with them? What are their pain points? Right? And you have to understand how the US landscape works, the healthcare system. How does insurance work?

How do payers work? How what's business acumen for an MSL? What are some things you have to understand about bringing value to a stakeholder? And you have to be able to prove that to a hiring manager, in addition to being to being a scientific expert. Incredible.

I I hope that helps. And if you have any other follow-up questions, please do not hesitate to put them, in the chat. That's great. And so you mentioned networking. I would love to hear some of your networking tips and tricks.

You mentioned conferences. You mentioned LinkedIn, which I'm a huge LinkedIn advocate. And I always say I still cannot believe that it's free. Like, after so, so many years, it's like, you know, you can send so many messages. I put myself on anonymous.

I don't know if other people do that. So I always click around looking at everyone's profile, whether or not I click to actually connect or follow them. Yeah. So there are so many strategies that we can use that are, you know, free. Conferences, of course, require sometimes travel and Mhmm.

This, that, and the other. But what are some of your tips and tricks for networking that you have found that have really worked and things that things that you would recommend to other people? Yeah. Absolutely. I think in today's it's it looks very different today than it did 5 pre COVID.

Pre COVID, you know, it was it was easier to get people to read your messages on LinkedIn. I think after COVID, everyone is online and, you know, in the digital ecosystem. I think response rates have dropped, and there is a better appreciation for in person events. So if you'd asked me this 5 years ago, I'd say just 100% go all in on LinkedIn. Now I will say, actually, look at local events.

If there's events near to you, the HBA has many chapters across the country. That's one that I always look look at when I'm looking at events regional events. And there's a very healthy body of people there that that are willing to mentor or coach. So look at events near you and go to those. There's nothing that beats face to face time.

You just you gotta get in front of people and and sell yourself. So in person networking for me now is actually my number one strategy or what I would recommend. But if you're not able to do that, I think the online ecosystem is a very close second. You just have to probably broaden your reach, and, you know, send more messages than you probably would have 5 years ago to get a similar number of responses. But the one thing that I think most people take for granted is that humans are predisposed to helping each other.

Like you have to believe in the power of humans wanting to help you. Right? And if you go into it with that mindset, that for every 10 messages I send, I'll get one response because there's one person that's gonna say, oh, this used to be me. I wanna talk to this person and help them out. You're gonna feel at ease.

Right? So if you knew that, if I told you that for every 10 people you reached out to and ask for help, you'd get one person that will respond to your message. How many would you send out? Right? So at the end of the day, you know, it's really, it's simple.

But those would be my recommendations is, you know, leverage in in in person events. HBA has great ones. MAPS is one of my favorites, as well. And then I love women of color in pharma. They have a very strong and supportive network.

And there's others that, I'm familiar with, but those would be my top top three in terms of, recommendations of groups that you can connect with and within. And I couldn't agree more about the sending of LinkedIn messages. It's such a different landscape pre COVID versus now. But that being said, though, I think another thing that I always tell, you know, students or people interested in breaking into the industry, it's not only to get a mentor and to be able to, you know, start networking with people in the industry, is that don't take it personally if people don't respond to you. Because I think some people are like, oh my gosh, am I bothering them?

I'm like, you know, chances are they've gotten 20 messages today. If yours happens to land in their inbox at the correct when they open it, then they will respond to yours. Oftentimes, it's very, like, you know, like, they might have a lot of messages, and it just happens to be the right timing. And so I that's another thing that I would just add is that just don't take it personally if they don't respond. If you see the little red message on the bottom, it doesn't mean that, you know, they looked you up and they don't want to chat with you.

Mhmm. I just oftentimes, I think they're just busy. And it's it's nothing that, like, they're just looking at your name, looking at your profile, and deciding not to say yes. Yes. It's more of they have a lot going on.

And, you know, I've actually had people months later respond to my messages. And they're like, oh, okay. So sorry. Sorry I missed that. Or, oh, I was off, you know, vacationing.

And then they come back and they respond, and it's it's incredible. So sometimes it takes time, but also if they don't respond, I I think the ratio that you gave is pretty accurate of 1 out of 10. And so just be willing to send that message. And I have a templated message, actually. And then I switch out 1 or 2 sentences that pertain specifically to their career path.

But oftentimes, it's a very simple message. And if you don't have premium, which I don't have premium, but you can send up to 50 messages, I believe, without paying. And so if you just click so what I do is I click connect, and then it says, would you like to add a note? And that's kind of a free way to get a message in there. But if you click InMail, oftentimes, it will be like, oh, you, you know, need to pay for premium to get InMail.

Right. Right. And so that's what I do, and it works really well. And then you can kind of just parse through different people. Another bit of advice I would give is, you know, I used to I I don't do it as much anymore.

Perhaps I should, honestly. But I I used to, set aside, like, 1 hour a week where I would just read through a bunch of interesting people and just decide, like, who I'm gonna message. And so it wasn't Right. You know, like, oh, I'm just gonna do it here and there or something. I just, like, blended it sometime on my calendar.

Oftentimes, it was, like, during a lunch break in residency or lunch break in fellowship where I just was like, okay, this lunch, I'm gonna sit and I'm just gonna find a bunch of interesting people and just start learning more about what they do because I think when I was starting to make the transition and think about what's my next step, I really leveraged LinkedIn. Because especially in the in the kind of hyper specialized niche that I'm in, there were not a lot of people that lived close to me at the time that did that. But there were so many amazing innovators across the country and in different countries really pushing the boundaries and doing amazing things. So for me, it it really worked at the time to to help me figure out what do these roles even entail, and do I wanna be a part of that? Absolutely.

It's funny you say that because I have, you know, when you have there's 2 inboxes in on LinkedIn, you have the InMail inbox, which is for people you're not connected to. And I, I, I saw a message in there today from like 4 months ago and I felt so bad, But I I hardly ever go to my InMail. Now my messages come directly to me. So your message may be sitting in someone's InMail, and they just there's no alert. At least I don't get an alert when I get InMail.

I have to, like, manually go look through that inbox. So never take things personally. Even if they do see it and decide not to respond, they're going through their stuff. You you know, just let them be and move on. You know?

I don't know how many how many 1,000,000,000 people are in the world. Like, find another person. Just Yeah. Next, you know, and I, you know, it's a, it's a mindset thing. Don't take it personal, rinse and repeat and keep going.

And I, I would say that the same thing applies when you're applying to jobs and when you're, you know, interviewing and things like that. Oftentimes, it's not personal at all. Yeah. Sometimes, you know, they have to they have quotas where they have to interview a certain number of people, but they've already identified someone internally that they're going to promote anyway. Right.

And so just keep, like, some of those nuance and kind of red tapey things in mind that, like, you could just be a part of their process. Yes. And you don't know how seriously they're considering you until, you know, you get farther along and and you meet more people on the team and you meet different stakeholders that you would actually be interacting with to kind of understand, okay. It are they taking me seriously? And therefore, you know, am I taking them seriously?

Because at the end of the day, a job is always a two way street. Like and, like, I think that's, like, the best way that, you know, the the culture match really fits is when as they're interviewing you, you see the way they treat you as well. And it's like, do they see me as just a number? Do they see me as like an asset on the team? Am I just filling a spot?

You know, so it's it's also very important too. And, you know, I think part of that comes with, you know, just the practice of interviewing and just acclimating yourself with the process and and learning what people are looking for. But it is very important to, you know, ensure that you're on board as much as they're on board. Like, it has to be mutual. Yes.

And I love how you said you may just be part of their process. And my challenge to candidates is make them part of your process. Right? Yes. What if I told you you had to go through 10 hiring manager interviews to get to level 2?

You're gonna go out and try to get 10 hiring manager interviews regardless of what the outcome is. So make them your guinea pigs. You know? So use that experience to get better. Right?

Like, take it and and practice. Use it as as practice. You know, instead of prepping with your sister or your family member or a coach, practice with a real life hiring manager and get as many hiring manager interviews as you can. Get as many scientific presentations as you can under your belt. And then you'll be surprised.

You'll get a call and you get an offer. You know? So also leverage, take these experiences as much as they may be negative in your mind. You gotta shift them around and look at them as this is practice for my my final the job I will get. And it's it's it's it never fails.

The job that you do get ends up being better than the ones that you got rejected from. 9 times out of 10, not always, but usually for the folks I work with, it's, it's like, wow, this is my job. And I got the offer and they're so happy. Incredible. Incredible.

And so we have another question in the chat. So she says, Such great insight. Thank you. Much appreciated. One more question.

What would you say is the most stressful part about being an MSL in your experience, and how do you manage it? I'm gonna say I'm gonna speak on behalf of all the MSLs in the world. I'm kidding. I think the most stressful part is delivering value, right? Especially if you're someone who takes ownership of your work and you take pride in your work, you're you always worry if you're delivering value to the scientific community and to the company.

Right? You always want to make sure that you're actually helping your clinicians, your stakeholders, your health care providers, and ultimately patients. Right? And so, for me, that's always top of mind is, am I delivering the value that my doctor or nurse practitioner or payer, what they expect and what's gonna help them provide better care for their patients. So for me, that's and it's it's more of a mental thing.

If you ask them, they're incredibly happy with the value that MSLs get really good reviews from clinicians. They love meeting with MSLs. But I will say it's just, you know, that mental is more of a mindset, making sure that every time you go in to meet with them, you're taking something along with you, you're doing some education, or you're making the conversation centered around something that will bring value to them and their patients. It's not travel. I hear that a lot.

It's not travel. Travel is the easy part. I think that's that's such a great perspective. Amazing. And now that you've been in the role, you know, initially, you were an MSL, then a senior MSL, then you managed MSLs, and now you're doing a bit more kind of in house medical strategy.

I would love to hear, you know, as you were progressing throughout the roles, how the MSL role evolved and how leadership played a role in that. Oh, well, that's a good one. I think the role has evolved to become more business driven and more business focused. You know, historically, the MSL role had been very siloed from the business operations of a pharmaceutical company. We were, you know, the little scientific department, we just did science and talked science.

Now MSLs are expected to understand the entire ecosystem. You have to understand how money comes into the company. You have to understand how money comes flows through the healthcare system, from payers to patients and PBMs, and ultimately how that impacts the cost of your drug. So it's not, it's no longer okay to just know the science and speak the science and be, you know, nerdy and and enjoy conversations around science. You have to be more well rounded.

So for me, that's how I've seen the role evolve. MSLs work very closely now with commercial partners. You have to get into their world. You have to see what they see. You have to have that hat on, at all times because ultimately, all roads do lead back to the company being profitable.

And so you you always have to keep that in mind as you do your job. So, you know, I will say that's how I've seen the role transition. It's just become more centralized around the business. And then I will say AI, you know, the the methods of delivery, you know, for MSLs have have shifted. We're leveraging AI now a lot more to deliver our content, to create our content.

The scientific community is is more, they're they're leaning toward they have a better appetite for smaller bites of information versus long drawn out presentations. I'm sure you've heard of omnichannel engagement. So kind of meeting every stakeholder where they're at and, providing real time value. You know, I think that's where we're headed. It's just how do we leverage technology to deliver value to our stakeholders?

Amazing. And, we did get another comment, in the chat. Just wanted to share that I love the way you phrase this. What if I told you that you had to get in front of 10 hiring managers before succeeding and this really reset their expectations? So they think you can do that.

Nice. Yeah. Thank you for that feedback. Yes. It's it's all about the mindset.

You you just just do it. Like Nike said, just do it. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And then, you know, for people, again, this kind of harps back to one of the questions I was asking before, but for someone who maybe feels that they're unqualified for the role or they're underqualified for the role, what would you say to them and and what sort of context do does transferable skills have in applying to an MSL role?

Yeah. You know, I think that kind of there's 2 ways I look at that. You know, do you feel unqualified because you truly are unqualified? Because there there are certain criteria on getting into an MSL job. Right?

Like, you have to have a life sciences background. I don't see that changing anytime soon. So if that's if that's your lack of qualification, it's probably a slam dunk that you would not be a good fit, and that's okay. There are other jobs out there that are phenomenal that you can get into within pharma. It's it's fine.

Just brush it off and move on. Now if you do have, you know, a life sciences background or experience, and you you don't believe you're you're qualified or you think you're underqualified, when when I get this feedback or when I talk to folks that say this, it's usually because they lack experiences in MSL. And, you know, there's proof that that's not true. Right? Because I'm proof of that.

I know dozens of people that are proof of that. So the first thing I will say is take comfort in knowing that others have done it, and so can you. Others that thought they were unqualified or underqualified have figured out a way to package themselves in a manner that was convincing. So for me, I would say, one is talk to someone that can help you validate whether or not you are underqualified. Because sometimes we're a little tough on ourselves and we don't understand how good we are and how amazing our qualifications are.

So gut check that with someone else. The best person would be someone who's done the job, right, and who understands it. And, you know, you can find them on all over LinkedIn. And you can just say, hey. Do you think I I could I could do this?

Now that being said, a lot of job applications want a unicorn. Like, that's just a fact. You know, I'm writing a job description. I want a unicorn. Don't tell me I can't get a unicorn.

So you also have to look at job descriptions with that frame of mind. The company is looking for someone that's gonna check all these boxes for them. There's no such thing. Right? Like, it just doesn't exist.

So once you know that the likelihood of any one human being meeting all those bullets is 0, then you're gonna realize that no one really is qualified for this job. And you understanding that, how then do you position yourself to, to succeed? How do you package yourself to meet those qualifications or speak that language within that job description as best as you can? And there's obviously ways to do that. One mistake that a lot of candidates make is they use one resume and apply to 20 different jobs.

You can't you can't do that. You have to customize every every application or every resume to the job in question. You know? You can't take a key to a Mercedes and try to start an Audi with it. Or try yeah.

You just you have to tailor your resume to the job in question and make sure that you're customizing and and addressing those areas that the job description states are important for them. At least try to match those as closely as possible. And I think that's where a lot of coaching helps and mentorship because a lot of people don't even see themselves as having some of the experiences on those job descriptions. You know, for example, retail pharmacists for 1, they spend a lot of time on the phone talking to doctors and answering questions about medications and, disease diseases. And when they see a bullet on the job description that talks about responding to medical information inquiries, they don't even connect the dots and say, oh my gosh, this is what I do on a day to day basis.

They see that and think they're not qualified. So there's a lot of lexicon and that's another part of the learning process. There's a lot of lexicon that pharma uses That really means the same thing in the real world clinical setting. But if you don't know that, you're not gonna know how to mirror those up. Exactly.

I love that you brought up the job description. This is just what I do. And, and I always suggest that other people do it too. It's like the bullets of requirements or, you know, like what they're exactly looking for to me, they're just suggestions. And so if they say, oh, you need these many years of experience.

You need this. You need that. I'm like, okay. That's nice. That's likely what you're looking for.

I'm gonna apply anyway. And sometimes you can surprise yourself because maybe you have certain experience that actually fits what they're looking for, but it's just less years than they thought. Or maybe it's, you know, you don't have this specific experience that you're able to speak to something you did in the past that's actually a transferable skill, like when you mentioned. And so, yeah, I I always give that give that recommendation. I'm like, just because it says x amount of years or just because it says you need to have x degree, like, especially coming at it from a PharmD perspective, so many roles say you have to be an MD, and I'm like, I apply anyway.

And I've I've gotten 1 or 2 of those roles. So it definitely like, don't limit yourself just based on the JD and then contrasting that with with your resume. So and, yeah, I love that you brought that up. And I also have to echo that it's all about the story. It's all about the way you tell the story of what you've done and tailoring the story to each application.

So for example, like I've had clinical pharmacists or internal medicine physicians say, I really wanna be an MSL, but I'm applying for this role in dermatology. But I'm not a dermatologist. And it's like, yes, but in the internal medicine setting as well as the clinical pharmacy setting, how many times do you deal with a dermatological condition or symptom or something or a side effect of a medication that's resulted in something that has to do with the skin. Like, there's so many great examples that you can give, even though it's not directly your therapeutic area of expertise. And so it's, you know, combing through your experience that's likely filled with so many gems that can be used in the interview process.

And so it's it's so much about, as you said, packaging the story, but reframing some of the other experiences that you've had. And like maybe you haven't written an email, a detailed response email to a healthcare provider, but you have provided the insight in many other ways. Mhmm. And so it's it's all about the framing or the reframing of previous experiences that you've had to make it fit with the, you know, with their ideal unicorn bullets. Amazing.

Okay. Any other questions that we can answer? We are already at 47 after. It has completely flown by. Is there any other questions from from the people who are attending right now, we will, look at the chat.

Otherwise, I I can also continue asking questions too, but I just wanted to keep it open. Getting some some great questions. I would also I would love to hear from your perspective, you know, especially growing up, going to pharmacy school, then doing a residency, doing a fellowship from my perspective. You know, everyone has this outside perception of what an MSL is. So I would love to hear, you know, what are some of the misconceptions that you've heard about the MSL role, and are they true or not?

Gosh. I think the one that I I, I hear a lot or and all the time is what do MSLs do? And even CEOs struggle with this. Our value cannot be measured. I don't know, you know, how else to explain that to people, but there is there's certainly we're we're a very gray area.

The MSL role is is very, very gray. It's hard to quantify the value that that we bring or that MSLs bring to a company. What I do know and what everybody understands is that companies will not be successful without MSLs. Mhmm. Now that leads me to one of the the most overt questions is our MSL sales reps, which that tends to be one of the biggest questions that I get as well and misconceptions.

No. MSLs are not sales representatives. They do work with sales representatives depending on the company and the firewalls in place. But there's a very, very, it's a codependent relationship in the sense that, you know, the the the stakeholders that sales reps interact with will more than likely need an MSL to come in and provide additional support at some at some point in some form, shape, or fashion. And MSLs also need to leverage commercial colleagues to get insights and, market, intelligence, right, within their territories.

It is critical for them to be able to infuse that into their work as well, again, in that space and that that that moment of having a well rounded perspective about the US landscape. So I will say, the 2 misconceptions, would be, what what do we do? What are we doing? And then also our MSL sales reps. Yep.

I've definitely heard both of those before. And then, you know, as you progress through your career and you look at some of your counterparts, what do you think are some of the key aspects of, like, you as a professional that really helps you stand apart and helps you succeed, especially if you look at perhaps some of your colleagues who, you know, did not climb the ranks in the same way? Consistency. I think, being consistent and always thinking about how you bring value is critically important. You've got to be audacious.

You've gotta take the risks. You've got to understand, when to push and when to pull, and, you know, that comes with experience. It comes with having the right coaching and mentorship, And it's not for everybody. You know? I have moments where I wanna just be an MSL again, because it's I still think it's the best job in the world.

You know? It's it's a beautiful role. You get to interact with some incredible human beings, you know, clinicians, you get to, travel and, and go to different places and meetings and conferences. You get, for me, you get to have a decent work life balance where as a parent, I enjoy being away from home a couple of days a month. I don't mind that at all.

So it's, you know, depending on what your, your goals are and right, and where you're headed, I think, you know, having the right frame of mind and understanding what it is you want to do with your life, like what is important to you, I think fundamentally success looks different for everybody. You know, not everyone wants to to get into management and lead and and and grow. They're perfectly okay just interacting with stakeholders and building these great relationships. So, I will say no matter what that path looks like for anyone, just being consistent and doing the work, you know, and having, I really think when I look at the folks that I've worked with or interacted with that have been successful, it's the mindset. Having a mindset of just just doing the work, and just being open, being coachable.

I haven't seen that fail yet. Yeah. That's a great answer. And we have 2 questions that have come in the chat. So the first one is, what strategies have you found effective for engaging with difficult key opinion leaders who are resistant to new ideas or interventions?

And I will add on to that as you answer. Can you just define key opinion leader for those who might not know what that is? Yes. Gosh. Depending on who you talk to, it's key opinion leader, thought leader, external expert.

Every company, I feel like, defines it in their own special way. Yeah. Yeah. So key opinion leaders are individuals within the scientific community that have an influential voice in a certain space. We have key opinion leaders usually categorized by the z state.

So they've either earned the respect of their peers, and they have a strong voice, in terms of directing care and, how patients are treated within that ecosystem. So think of them as influencers, scientific influencers. And you have you know, now we have folks that are digitally influential. You may not see them in a publication, but they have a million followers on TikTok and and Twitter. So they also qualify as as opinion leaders because they they influence, you know, treatment paradigms and they they influence the landscape.

So those would be those that would be my definition of a thought leader, key opinion leader, influencer. Now in terms of strategies for getting in front of difficult, key opinion leaders, I will say it's it's twofold. Right? 1, how important is this key opinion leader to your work? Right?

As an MSL, you would get, you know, ideally a list of of thought leaders, usually tier 1 and above. The tier ones tend to be the really, really big folks. I think of the Sanjay Gupta's of the world, and it's really critical to get in front of those people. They're also the most difficult to build relationships with. So, the the first and and probably most effective way of getting in front of these folks would be leveraging your existing network.

Maybe someone within the company has a relationship with them. The the somewhat unfortunate thing about some of these folks is they usually have relationships within the company with other people outside of the MSL, medical directors, sometimes even the CEO or other, leaders within the organization. And so you may end up just being an informed party to that relationship, and that's okay. Right? I think as long as there's an understanding within the company who owns that relationship and who manages it, most companies don't care that the MSL is not the quarterback of that relationship as long as there is a relationship.

So I think it's important to understand how important this individual is to the company, and is there an existing relationship with the company as a whole, even if it's not with you? And if there is, you know, as long as your manager is okay with that, have a conversation with them and say, hey. You know, the medical director owns this. They're doing ad boards with this person. They're doing congress symposia.

Is it okay if I just fall back and I'm reactive with this? And most hiring managers will be okay with that. Right? Because these folks have very limited time. Now if they don't have any relationship with the company at all, then you have to pull out the guns.

You have to pull out all your tactics. Right? You know, reaching out to them through external connections that you may have. I've done LinkedIn, believe it or not. I just connected with them on LinkedIn.

Again, social media policy, look at your company and see what they're comfortable with. The other best place to connect with them is at at conferences where they're speaking. They're usually always speaking at conferences. Leveraging other KOLs that you may have a relationship with that they also have a relationship with. There are many tools out there now that can tell you, they can take a KOL and tell you who who's in their ecosystem, and you can see the other 20 docs that are in that person's ecosystem.

So you may be able to ask for an introduction, through those individuals. And I think, you know and there's more, but, just keeping track of time. In worst case scenario, you move on. Right? And I think that's something that MSLs have to be okay with, and hiring managers have to be okay with as well.

If you cannot get through to a top tier KOL for whatever reason, you cannot get through to them. You move on to the next person on your list. Your time is better served managing effective relationships than trying to knock down doors that will never open. Absolutely. We have 2 really good questions.

Okay. I have 2 minutes. So I'm not sure how or how we're gonna do it, but let's see if we can. Okay. So the first one is how do your responsibilities change as you transition from, like an entry level or, you know, the 1st step MSL to becoming a senior MSL?

And then the other question is, what would you say is the first step for a pharmacist from a different background, like, for example, retail, to get into an MSL role? And is there any additional training that you would recommend? Yes. So for the first question, I forgot it already. Oh, but that's the height of the responsibility screen as you become a senior consultant.

For the first question, it's just more you're less involved in the day to day territory operations of interacting with key opinion leaders, and you're more engaged with strategic, activities. Right? So, like, building out the strategy for that region and, you know, managing folks. So your responsibilities go from managing your key opinion leaders and HCP network to now managing and mentoring actual people within the organization. You become a voice within leadership team meetings in terms of identifying what the strategic imperatives should be and what the tactics should be for the field medical teams.

So you your your your time gets shifted. You still may maintain relationships with stakeholders, but you're not the owner of those relationships anymore. The MSL in that region is. And as a senior MSL, you will still hold relationships, but, you may be relied on more for internal projects and mentoring and, leading things like congress planning and ad boards and speaker programs. Now the second question, repeat the second question again.

Yes. So so the second question is, what's the first step for a pharmacist, for example, from a retail background, who wants to transition into becoming an MSL? And is there additional training that you would recommend? Yes. That's a great one, and that's one we get quite a bit.

I will say there are 3 things that I I look at when I think about recipe for success, regardless of where you're coming from. 1, you have to have a very, very, stellar portfolio. What is your portfolio? Your resume has to tell the story of your transferable skills into the role. You have to have a very powerful pitch.

Right? When you reach out to individuals that are decision makers, you've gotta have a story that's compelling. You have to have a reason for them to keep reading. And 3, your LinkedIn profile has to be up to par. You have to communicate that cause they're all going to go there when they see your resume or your cover letter or your pitch.

Right? So those three things are what I call your portfolio. They've got to be well done and you can do it yourself. There's so many tools online now that can help you, create that because that's really your introduction. That's what's going to get them to invite you for an interview.

Now the second pillar is you have to have a solid understanding of the MSL job, right? It's not okay to just read online and, and, you know, you can listen to podcasts, you know, if you listen to enough of them, you'll get in that frame of mind, but there has to be an intentional effort to get it to be have an immersive experience of the the role of an MSL. Talk to as many MSLs as you can, Have some very pointed questions about what they do. Immerse yourself in the role. Think about what you would do if you were an MSL.

Imagine yourself interacting with stakeholders. Think about the kind of conversations you would be having. Think about bringing value back to the company. So the second pillar is you've got to have a solid understanding of the job because your role when you get into an interview is to convince the hiring manager that you're better than someone who has experience. So imagine that as a challenge, right?

That's a huge challenge and you can do it, but you just can't go in there thinking, oh, I read a couple of, you know, blogs online. I, you know, I listened to a podcast, I'm ready. No, you're not. You're not. It's, and that's where the, the third pillar is your strategy.

You have to approach these, this strategically. You have to have a plan for what companies you're gonna go after, you're gonna target. What roles are you gonna go after in terms of senior versus, you know, regular MSL jobs? What territories are you gonna apply across the country? Are you gonna stick with your locale?

So there has to be an intentional effort. And within the companies you're gonna reach out to, who are you gonna contact within those companies? So those are the 3 pillars, your portfolio, your understanding, and, verbalization of the job, and being able to be convincing enough and sell yourself well enough in front of a panel that they're gonna say, we can't let this person go. We're gonna have to give them this job, or we'll find another job to give them. That's your job, is to get them to not let you go because you're so good that they already see you as an MSL.

And then 3rd is you have to have a strategy. I tried once when it's over. That's fine. I think that is the perfect way to end it. So thank you so much for spending time with us, doctor Sidonie Niba, MSL coach, extraordinaire, mentor, entrepreneur, philanthropist, all the things.

Thank you so much for spending time with us this evening. We will have the recording up on the LinkedIn Live if you ever wanna refer back to it. We're also gonna post it on our YouTube channel. So if you wanna see it there, you're also welcome to do that. And, yeah, if you ever have any questions, please don't hesitate to reach out to either of us.

Awesome. Thank you so much. It was such a pleasure. Thanks for having me. Yes.

Thank you for coming. Alright. Bye.